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[–] FaceDeer@fedia.io 138 points 1 month ago (2 children)

There's a straightforward way to resolve the paradox of tolerance, IMO. Treat tolerance as a social contract. An intolerant person has explicitly rejected the contract.

[–] TBi@lemmy.world 43 points 1 month ago

Fully agree. Being tolerant is part of the social contract. If you break the rules then why should we play the same game.

[–] 5765313496@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I agree. Straightforward and simple. But I don't think I know how to simply explain what a social contract is to someone. Does anyone have a good example of a social contract?

[–] Bougie_Birdie@piefed.blahaj.zone 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Choose to fit your audience:

  • Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

  • If you deny my right to exist, you forfeit yours

  • Fuck around and find out

  • Talk shit, get hit

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

You forgot one:

  • Act only according to maxims which you would have be universal

In other words, don't do something that you would be upset if someone else did.

[–] BillyTheKid2@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 month ago (7 children)

This doesn't work in everybody. There's a lot of things I like, and I would want everybody to do, that I recognize most rational people would never want.

If I followed this advice I would bother almost everybody I interact with.

The majority set the vibe. It's ugly, but there it is. If I reject this it will only cause friction in my life. So for people like me, a better quote is:

Act only according to maxims which those affected would have be universal

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[–] Folstar@lemmus.org 58 points 1 month ago (1 children)

This is an asked and answered question.

Tolerance is not a moral stance, it is part of the social contract. Those that violate the social contract, like Nazis, are not protected by it. Paradox solved.

[–] PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago

Exactly. The “paradox” part disappears as soon as you start viewing things through the lens of a social contract. The intolerant are intentionally and repeatedly breaking the social contract, and are therefore not protected by it.

[–] Leviathan@lemmy.world 39 points 1 month ago (6 children)

It's not a paradox, it's a social contract.

I am tolerant of everyone except those who are intolerant of people doing things that hurt no one and/or those who hurt others.

You don't like Nazis? Tolerance granted.

You don't like trans people? Tolerance denied.

It's incredibly simple to understand, isn't paradoxical and is easy to live by.

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[–] P1k1e@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Why are we so tied to the word tolerance specifically? Decency, kindness, courtesy, and empathy seem to be more what were all aiming for anyway.

Is it cuz tolerance is the bare minimum? (This is a genuine question)

[–] Jason2357@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 month ago

Tolerance is useful because it conveys the notion of restraining from persecuting someone for something you specifically and perhapse strongly dislike (as long as it doesnt cross certain lines). It makes it unacceptable to use state or social power without a reasoned argument for actual harm.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

So much of this shit is stacked on top of established cultural and social mores anyway.

Case in point, "Decency" can mean a lot of different things to different people. Is this about self-policing your speech and dress? Or extending charity to your neighbors? Or simply staying silent so as not to appear rude? Or being an outspoken crusader in the face of rudeness and impropriety?

Is it cuz tolerance is the bare minimum?

Tolerance is the benchmark for an egalitarian society. And the Hitler/Nazi reference is intended to illustrate the perils of showing tolerance for a foreign belief system, which queues up the "paradox" in question. If your goal is egalitarianism, how do you police against anti-egalitarian sentiment dressed up as "just another point of view"?

And who gets to decide what gets tolerated, anyway? Because any road you take can get you back to fascist tendency.

Is "intolerance of the intolerant" an excuse to wipe up a mob against a foreign religion you find distasteful? Is it a reason to break up social events or try and heckle opposition politicians or vandalize property? Or is it just a vibe you express when prompted, while otherwise allowing the "intolerable" ideology to persist?

This line of logic also doesn't really answer the hard questions, like, "What if the cops are in the club that you find intolerant?" Or "What if the national media club is promoting intolerant beliefs?" How do you refuse to tolerate the powerful, the wealthy, and the socially insulated?

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[–] RadiallyAxiomatic@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 month ago

I would guess that is why. We should push for greater ideals, as you say, but I will begrudgingly accept tolerance as the minimum.

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[–] prex@aussie.zone 21 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Karl Popper is also the guy who wrote about falsifiability

Big brain right there.

Edit: fixed the link.

[–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I see so many people fall into the trap of spouting unfalsifiable statements when talking about AI.

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[–] vk6flab@lemmy.radio 20 points 1 month ago
[–] JasSmith@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

Any movement that preaches intolerance and persecution must be outside of the law.

This is a common misconception about the Paradox of Tolerance, and I'm going to reference the person who invented it: Karl Popper in his 1945 work, The Open Society and Its Enemies:

I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

Popper argues that we should tolerate intolerance only up to the point of violence. That is, if one physically attacks us, we no longer have the burden of tolerance. Popper is commonly misquoted and intentionally misused to justify violence against disagreement, and that is clearly not his position.

The graphic above states that we should not tolerate "movements" which preach "intolerance." This is a subjective standard. I think Islam preaches intolerance. By this standard, I would be justified in banning all Muslims from immigrating to Denmark. This is why Popper used the much clearer standard of physical violence. Any modern society must tolerate disagreement - including "intolerant" disagreement. We resolve that intolerance at the ballot box. We cannot allow physical violence. No, someone saying mean words is not physical violence.

[–] squalless@programming.dev 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I disagree with this assessment of the text - assuming it's correct, I'm not familiar with the source.

What this extract is saying imo is as long as it's possible to effectively keep in check and counter intolerance with argument and public opinion, suppression is unwise.

But, tolerance should reserve the right to suppress intolerance before it becomes violent, specifically when intolerance acts in bad faith and refuses to participate in logical argument or debate, and instead denounces argument entirely.

So the threshold is not violence itself, but one example of what "may" lead to violence.

Just my 2¢ on the text (not my opinion on the topic).

[–] JasSmith@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

There is no way to reconcile your interpretation with the actual text:

and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

A preemptive strike is neither stated nor implied by Popper. I find that a dangerous proposition for a democratic nation. It would justify any and all manner of violence based on nothing and anything but the subjective and active imaginations of the politically inclined.

[–] squalless@programming.dev 5 points 1 month ago (4 children)

I've re-read it and still kindly and respectfully disagree about the meaning of that excerpt in isolation. Whatever the implications of this interpretation are, I have no idea because I'm not familiar with the work (however naïvely).

Here's a detailed breakdown of my take:

I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies;

The key word here is always, so, intolerant philosophies shouldn't always be suppressed.

as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

The condition for not suppressing intolerant philosophies is if they can be kept in check and countered by public opinion and rational argument.

But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force;

Reserve the right to suppression if necessary..

for it may easily turn out that

Because the following things might easily happen:

they [the intolerant] are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

An example of what may occur when the first approach fails due to essentially bad faith, and the reasoning for why to reserve the right to suppression. But it doesn't frame violence as the threshold for when to apply that suppression.

Anyway, that's my take. I'm still assuming this quote is accurate - I haven't checked it.

And once again I'm absolutely not agreeing with these positions or assertions about the suppression of intolerance, this is just how I understand the text.

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[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force

He then goes on, in the paragraph you quoted, to make it clear that it's refusing rational argument that's a problem because it can lead to violence, not violence itself.
Further, if you finish the paragraph it becomes clear that the opening statement is anything but a misunderstanding:

We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

You don't have to agree with him, you can be partial to rawles, but popper was not vague.

[–] JasSmith@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

He then goes on, in the paragraph you quoted, to make it clear that it’s refusing rational argument that’s a problem because it can lead to violence, not violence itself.

Not just that. He also very clearly requires there to be the incitement to physical violence:

and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

I agree with the end of the paragraph. His definition of intolerance includes the incitement to violence, and what he argues follows logically.

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[–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 month ago

It's closer to the social contract of tolerance. If the contract is broken then the gloves are off, no one gives a damn about the universalist Christians but the Evangelicals are broadly hated on average, hell even my bloodthist is generally more socially acceptable than your average Evangelical since my focus is moreso directly on folks and entities who cause harm through secondary or primary effect.

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 15 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Absolutes are absolute bullshit.

[–] prex@aussie.zone 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)
[–] P1nkman@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 5 points 1 month ago

Indubitably

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[–] Foofighter@discuss.tchncs.de 14 points 1 month ago

Understand tolerance as a social contract and not as a moral obligation. Tolerance is about piece within a society, not about right or wrong. If you do, there is no paradox, because the contract is broken and therefore does no longer apply. It also allows you to counter far right ideologies from whomever they come.

[–] Mulligrubs@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

Who's in charge of what is and is not "intolerant"?

that's the problem

For example, Christianity, Islam, Judaism are ALL intolerant faiths by their own admission.

[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 month ago

Shhh Redditors really like this idea.

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[–] Gullible@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 month ago (5 children)
[–] NorthernLightMountain@piefed.social 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] Gullible@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/kill-six-billion-demons-chapter-1/

Kill 6 billion demons. It has some of the most emotionally honest, colorful, and complex characters that I’ve read in a comic. And the art is so careful. It’s a modern classic. And free!

Thanks, I'll have to check it out!

[–] gorbinos_quest@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

What the flip is this, looks rad!

[–] Gullible@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/kill-six-billion-demons-chapter-1/

Kill 6 billion demons. It’s a vast, well crafted universe with intricately personed characters who are never forgotten or discounted. It’s a deconstruction of the hero’s journey that doesn’t ever overstay its welcome. It’s an allegory for modern and ancient and interminable and spiritual and human woes. It’s pretty good.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 month ago (3 children)

I have conflicting thoughts about this.

More often than not this explanation is just used as a excuse to hate whatever group you want while labeling yourself as the good one. But applied to the ultimate consequences most people would still be intolerant.

The classical example of not tolerating nazis because they are intolerant to others, is used because it's a flawless example. The definition of a nazi is a person who wants to eliminate other groups from society just because what they are. A tolerant society cannot exist with them, so they have to go. Perfect.

But we have real life problems when we move from the perfect example to practical cases.

1The "everyone I don't like is a nazi" problem. Someone who wants to be a good intolerant just have to label their opponents as nazis, no matter if they are or not. Just the label is good enough.

While Nazis are used as a classical example. The more pure definition is, that tolerant society should not tolerate people who are intolerant. Thus, only allowed intolerance is the intolerance to the intolerant, any other type of intolerance should then make you a valid target for intolerance.

And here is when I see the biggest problem. That society doesn't usually fit most people values. I would give you several examples. Take billionaires, take robbers, take whatever kind of person you don't like, not only don't like but you don't want anyone like that in your society, for reasons different to them being intolerant. There are other undesirable values in a person that sometimes are worse than intolerance. The lack of tolerance to those people really puts you in the same spot as the Nazi in the paradox of intolerance. As you are hating on people for reasons different than they not being tolerant.

I see two honest solutions and one dishonest one.

The first honest solution is to strictly adhere to the idea of being tolerant everyone but the intolerant idea. Which will imply a higher effort to accept people in the society that you currently don't want to accept. Embrace that tolerance is the ultimate goal and just reject the intolerant, accepting everyone else, no matter what.

The second honest solution is to reject complete unconditional tolerance to everyone but the intolerant. Create a more strict set of values of what the society should tolerate. And embrace the idea that complete unconditional tolerance is a not the goal.

The dishonest solution is just lie about it. Seek excuses, loopholes or overcomplicated cherry picking reasonings on why the people you don't want to tolerate are actually intolerants and then covered by the paradox of intolerance and be happy with it.

To each their own. In the later years I'm feeling myself leaning more for the second honest solution. Unconditional tolerance is not a goal per se. I try to create a developed moral system that could actually be universal and that everyone and anyone could and should follow. And think that maybe I should not tolerate anyone that breaks this ethical rules. Basically instead of saying that the "golden rule" is to be tolerant and that's the only rule that people is not allowed to break. My golden rule is more on the lines of "be a good person", which is harder to define but I think it's more solid, and that's the only rule that should not be broken.

And here ends my TED talk.

[–] AstralPath@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 month ago

Being a billionaire is a choice, a choice to hoard money to the detriment of everyone and everything around you. One could easily choose to not be a billionaire by paying taxes and funding their local social support services and donating to charity. Intolerance of greed on the scale of billions of dollars should be the norm as it is actively detrimental to society.

Robbery is a violation of personal safety and social boundaries and is also actively detrimental to society. It is also a choice.

Intolerance of the choices of others that violate the social contract of "don't be greedy, don't steal, don't hurt others, etc..." is valid intolerance in my opinion.

Nazis are intolerable because they are intolerant of the vast majority of humanity itself and for reasons outside of most people's control. Sure, you can make it a choice and convert to Judaism, but the vast majority of Jews are born into Judaism; It's not a choice like greed on the scale of billions or breaking and entering.

For that reason alone, Nazis are worth disposing of. The myriad additional reasons to hate Nazis just makes the job easier.

[–] TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

There are also a plurality of underlying issues not explored by this, because it's treated as first order only problem. Like... why is it that people become intolerant and why they blame certain groups for things.

And usually that's underlying economic or inequality conditions in the society or other forms of social upheaval.... which people generally don't want to address so much as they want to focus on the social sorting of hating and being hateful as the 'solution'. It's much easier to be tolerant when you are in an environment where members are all roughly of equal status, harder when there are perceived or real inequalities and abuses of power.

Real world is more complicated because people don't hate for no reason. They may, have very legit reasons, and you likely may have the same reasons directed towards a different group.

Everyone does vastly over simplify this, because well, they want to use is as a litmus test to prove they are good and other people are bad, and that's the only 'use' of this principle. Which is what folks do with a lot of moral/social guidelines... they want to reduce them to sorting mechanisms with themselves on the 'right' side of the sort... and if you challenge that notion maybe it's not that simple... you must be one of the 'bad' people.

Further, everyone is intolerant of something. Even if they won't admit it. Nor will they admit... that they and everyone else make mistakes. People's mind and behaviors change... a whole other second order factor also totally outside the scope of this 'paradox'. and for a lot of folks on lemmy... you can't ever change or be reformed from your previous views... etc.

We also have the wonderful case of social movements that seek to turn innocuous behaviors into intolerable assaults on themselves, like the 'manspreading' nonsense from Tumblr.

I think it's better understood as a phenomena, not a principle or a rule or any of that. You don't have to 'accept' or 'reject' it. You should think about it though, about the implications of where you draw the line, because in real life it is never as clean as 'nazis bad, everyone non-nazi good', and there are so many legal and other examples that get into murkey waters.

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[–] nek0d3r@midwest.social 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

I think tolerance is simply a liberal idea, and it's been a demonstrably exploitable one. The moment a reactionary says "aren't you supposed to be tolerant", I simply don't know where they're getting that from. I tolerate what I want, and the intolerant don't get to invoke my tolerance.

[–] PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Worth noting that “the tolerant left” was a term coined by conservatives, specifically to try to guilt the left into accepting them (and giving them ammo to use when the left rejects them).

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[–] im_fine_sandy@nord.pub 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Paradoxically, the paradox of tolerance is most often cited in the course of branding someone as "intolerant" and thereby excusing your intolerance of them.

Its a problem of semantics. Who really is sufficiently intolerant to be intolerable?

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[–] 58008@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

There are different types and expressions of tolerance, so I think getting tied up in knots about a mythical all-encompassing tolerance that no cunt on Earth preaches (not even Jesus or the Buddha) is probably a side quest that doesn't need completing. It's like two linguists who've read a class of philosophy having a grammar nazi stand-off. You may as well include being abused and conned by criminals in that kind of tolerance, which is obviously stupid, but it's no more stupid than thinking your personal philosophy is threatened when faced with a nazi whose goals you wanna prevent coming to fruition.

Tolerating people who have characteristics that are not necessarily of their own choosing is not in the same ballpark as tolerating those who want to eradicate that first group. "Leave people alone" is better, it includes preventing the non-leaving alone of people by cunts, e.g. nazis, with no paradoxes involved. "But leave me alone to be a nazi!" ok, what does being a nazi involve? "The sterilisation and extermination of..." lemme just stop you there. Done!

[–] untorquer@quokk.au 7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Legalizing tolerance is a method co-opt a liberal regime into fascism.

Take anti-semitism laws in germany and protesting the Israeli genocide of palestinians for example.

Or the UK...

A counter example, Ireland.

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[–] mHtt@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I've got one for you:

If you wish to be tolerated, you must yourself be tolerant.

[–] Balldowern@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

"Tolerance has a limit. Beyond that limit, intolerance becomes duty."

  • Rig Védā

If intolerance is outlawed though, the terms must be very clear, lest the intolerant use those law against those who would use them against them. Intolerance of ideas is different than intolerance of people.

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