in a heartbeat. most modern countries are better than the united states in demonstrable, meaningful ways.
this post was submitted on 25 Jan 2025
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I can get EU citizenship which makes me very lucky
You said "can get", implying you haven't done so yet. My advice? Get the EU citizenship. Simply getting EU citizenship doesn't commit you to actually moving overseas.
That said, things aren't that bad right now, but it'll take time to process the paperwork. By the time things get bad enough to force you, you may not have the time to wait for your application to be processed. Plus, depending on the number of refugees, they may change the rules on who qualifies.
Worst thing that happens is that you spend some time, effort and money and you get some peace of mind, which isn't a terrible thing at all.
Sorry about the thread necromancy, but I'm really curious. About a year ago you said "things arenβt that bad right now". Well, a lot has changed since then. Any updates? Do you think moving would be advisable now? According to the news I see frequently, ICE is out of control, due process is out the window, the constitution matters less and less each day and so on. Makes me wonder how Americans see that.
That's a good question. I think it depends on who and what you are, what your resources are, how old you are and how risk-adverse you are.
OP is trans, so is likely to be directly targeted at some point. They're also in Wisconsin, which is resisting fascism and they're also near the Canadian border if they want to make a run for it. But you don't want to wait until thugs are breaking down your door to leave.
If I was OP, I'd have applied for EU citizenship, and then an EU passport. I'd be looking into what countries I could emigrate to, what skills I had or could acquire, and what resources I would need. Like, you can move to any country in the EU, but to become a permanent resident, you need to prove you won't be a burden to them. Sometimes you can do that by buying property or a golden visa, sometimes you can just show proof of income/resources, sometimes you can have a desired career.
Like, nurses are almost always in demand, so if I was looking to emigrate, I'd see if I could pick up a nursing degree. Because even if you don't qualify for as a citizen, many places are willing to allow nurses live and practice in their countries.
If you're on the younger side, it's easier to move overseas, easier to adjust, and you have a longer period where you'd be living under oppressive rule / a longer period to re-establish yourself and live a happy life, so moving makes more sense. If you're older and moving is more disruptive, I can see people being more hesitant.
Sometimes, even if you have a passport or the resources, there may be some other reason you choose not to leave - family, friends, responsibilities.
For people who are leaving now, I certainly don't blame them. For people who are making contingency arrangements - documentation, citizenship, savings, career path, whatever - I think that's certainly a prudent thing to be doing.
There are also people who have decided to stay: some because they refuse to give in it give up, some because they may have options but they also have responsibilities, some because they don't have options other than crossing a border and finding someplace to take them in. I feel for this last category, because that's especially hard to judge: it needs to be "late enough" that more places are willing to take refugees, but not so late that countries are strained: if even 1% of the population flees, that's 3.5 million people looking for a new home, and no place can handle that. It'll be another diaspora - but that also means resettlement will be harder for each individual.
The people who are leaving or planning to, the people who have intentionally chosen to stay - they've made their decisions for their own reasons, and I respect that. The people who would like to leave and have no path other than literally running away - I feel for them, and I wish they had better options. I don't think it's too late, but I also don't think their options will get any better from here unless they're taking positive steps - that nursing degree, for example.
The people who are actively cheering for what's happening - well, if I had The Snap, I think the world would be a better place - though I'm sure they think the exact same thing.
All that said, though: we're all fucked in the end. Fascism may be coming to the States, but climate change is coming for all of us: drought, famine, pestilence and war are headed our way, and a bunch of rich people would rather see the planet burn than address actual problems and lose a tiny bit of their paper-based wealth.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Living under a totalitarian regime can get incredibly difficult, and Europe has many scars like that. One such example was Nicolae CeauΘescu. He said he would fix the economy of Romania, but his methods involved people suffering from famine and freezing cold homes. You never know how dictators decide to torture their people.
I personally would not. I've lived most of my life now in a very blue area in a very red state, and I love it here. But, while I put the "B" in LGBTQ and am in a committed relationship that's far from monogamous, I'm superficially a cishet white man, and in general I'm treated with more respect by people who have irrational prejudices than many others.
I use that respect to advocate for the rights of others, and I'm not going to stop being an advocate in Texas. I have friends who are gay, lesbian, and trans who feel the same way and aren't going anywhere. I would like them all to fight by my side, but I also don't begrudge anyone who feels like they need to leave this state for safety reasons. This applies particularly acutely to parents of trans children who have to leave to access gender affirming care and not be subject to prosecution.
All that said, if you're not an EU citizen but are eligible for citizenship, that does sound like an enticing option. How long would it take you to establish citizenship there? At that point, you'd have dual citizenship and could freely move on either continent. So it boils down to whether you want that or not. Minnesota seems like a fine place to live (but way colder than I could ever tolerate), but so do some EU countries. How will you adapt to the culture? Will you be alright living in an entirely different culture or will you miss US culture too much? What does your current support system look like, and how would you feel about leaving it? You've got a lot to think about!
Advocates in the front, armaments in the back. Remind your folks to buy guns.
If you're tired of Minnesota, come to Portland! We've got your back here.
But I'd get that citizenship anyway.
Already left in 2003 or so.
Healthcare financial risk was an issue, and I was there on an H1, so I just went home.
If you don't mind the cold of Minnesota, maybe Norway could be a good fit. My sister and her trans boyfriend seem to thrive in Trondheim.
You might prefer a larger city in a more southern country if you want the option of proper city life. I hear the Netherlands is particularly good despite being rainy, not to mention very built up and close to other metropolitan centers. But if you like the outdoors, Trondheim probably fits well. It's pretty well developed for it's size, too.
Can I suggest packing light and moving around in the EU to see if you find a favorite place?
It depends on so many factors. How well you can and more importantly if you are willing to appear "passing", and/or if you are in a local area that is accepting. You will likely never be "proud" of the USA again, sadly, if that's a thing for you. It's worth grieving that.
On the other hand, big moves REALLY suck! And that's not to be undertaken lightly, even if only for consideration of timing. Would you be abandoning family, possibly someone who you want to become family but aren't ready to move to another country with? That kind of thing.
It helps to think it all through, be kind to yourself in the meantime, and think like: "which would I later regret the most, looking back?" You may legit want to wait a few years first, or, you might not. Maybe either way give yourself a year to process it all. Or don't, and if that's your call, then don't look back:-).
As a European, I'm biased and say go for it! They being said, Europe has a lot of different climates and cultures to offer so kinda depends what your looking for.
In a perfect world (where you have the money and time to do so), I would suggest you backpack around for 3+ months and see which vibes you like the most. At the very least, I would suggest visiting somewhere in Europe first (even just one place) if you haven't done so
I've a tentative job offer to move overseas, but I'm hesitant because it would be rough for close friends and family.
America is done, but a part of me feels I should stay and go down with the ship, attempting to do whatever positive things I can in my local community.
I'm torn.
On the flip side, if you did go and your friends/family felt more of a push to go (maybe things get worse) you could be a bridge for others to have an easier time coming to Europe. Just a thought but I understand moving yourself would also be challenging. I have experience with it so I'm aware
Skipping a lot of pitfalls by assuming like for like standard of living, family stays together, similar job, and no question whether we'd get in or not, probably one of the scandiavian countries. I'd need to do some research, but there's one of them (or more?) I thought that had both super high taxes (wait for it) and also a super happy population with a wide array of well thought out public services.
I'd settle for any country where I could be reasonably likely not to encounter death camps or civil war within the next few decades, though.
Yes, Ireland or Canada. And I'd consider a move back if I saw a pattern of behaviour that I could call a sound rejection of fascism.
There's no way someone like me has that opportunity though.
Yes, Ireland or Canada. And
So, Newfoundland? They have a pure and true Kilkenny accent, if you trust the opinion of an Irish IT recruiter I spoke with a year or so ago.
And it's close if you want to visit home or, ahem, have family visit you for a while.
Yes. Scotland.
Without hesitation. I'd love to live in a civilized country, but unfortunately I was born in the US.
Yes, England or Spain. Refitting my boat for the crossing now. The boat has done it before, but I haven't. It's going to take some work, and the financial side is brutal.
Yes, but I don't have any real means to get a work visa unless I move somewhere in the developing world that I don't speak the language.
If I could get a visa for almost anywhere in Europe, I'd be gone by the end of the week.
Yes
Already did.
Yeah, started the process in 2017 when this shit show started. I've been getting so tired of saying "I told you so".
Luxembourg, Belgium, Norway, Slovenia
I have never fit in America, but I have no delusions I would fit in any other country. I think Canada is fed up with us Americans, so the closest culturally related country isn't an option.
Europe has a lot of different cultures that range from relatively close to the US (UK, Ireland) to ones that are more different but still not all that far off. I mean think about it, the US was built by immigrants from all over Europe that brought their different cultures with them.
If I may, perhaps somewhere in Europe is somewhere you'd fit in better. No guarantee course but I felt compelled to at least mention my thought
Thanks for the sentiment, but the chances of the EU granting citizenship to me is very low. Including any sort of ancestry claims; I don't believe I qualify.
Yes! Only hesitation would be my cat, but I've been looking into digital nomads for a bit.
Really depends. Can I get a job outside the US quickly? Am I a citizen able to leave at will?
I'm in the process of moving to a blue state, but I'd be open to Europe
I made this decision about a year and a half ago and moved to Germany. Lgbtq are welcome here as much as they are in the US.
Moving out of America to a county with worker rights is like time traveling into the future.
I plan to move to Uruguay soon. It has a lot of aspects that fit my wants in a country.
Yes, England
I don't believe that works.
I suggested Norway because it's in Schengen, but the UK is both out of the EU and not in Schengen, unless I'm mistaken.
You are correct unfortunately π’
I mean, probably, but realistically I suspect that I wouldnt have very much luck were I to attempt it. Were I somehow to have a guaranteed shot at it, I guess I'd probably be thinking about either Ireland or the Netherlands? Honestly I feel like if actually given the choice, Id want to be doing a lot more research first.
I assume this means being able to do so comfortably and with stability. Absolutely. However, the list of countries I consider good places to go is getting small. I hate being "American", I don't feel like I belong at all. The vast majority are just center line brain dead zombies and the people outside of that are all into fascism in one flavor or another.
Yes because living here is a death sentence for me. Kinda like how it was before the Holocaust. Living in Germany when Hitler came into power was a death sentence for people like me.
Probably, but I don't have that privilege and I'm not a high visibility undesirable.
As long as your decision includes awareness that facism is on the rise in America. Be very sure that is where you want to be when the lid blows off.