Controversial - the community to discuss controversial topics.
Challenge others opinions and be challenged on your own.
This is not a safe space nor an echo-chamber, you come here to discuss in a civilized way, no flaming, no insults!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, "trust me bro" is not a valid argument.
It. Simply. Isn't. A. Problem.
Professional womens sports aren't dominated by trans women, and they never will be.
And no man would transition in order to dominate womens sports.
The entire debate is a straw-man for splitting women into "real" and "fake" ones, denying trans women the right to exist.
What about eg. Anne Andres setting multiple national and world power lifting records?
Good for her.
If it turns out that she has an unfair advantage, and the IPF, CPU and other powerlifting organisations feel like it's damaging the sport, they can make a ruling on a case by case basis (which they always could and in this case have, by suspending her).
To ensure that the sport of powerlifting stays free from competitors with elevated testosterone levels (/s).
There is absolutely no reason to try and come up with a "solution" for all transgender people in all sports.
We can't set a limit on testosterone levels, because then biological women like Caster Semenya, who naturally has high testosterone, are forced to take T blockers (This actually happened to her)
And wouldn't that allow women to dope up until an acceptable level?
Where do you draw the line?
I don't. There doesn't need to be a line.
Just let the sports associations each make their rules and decide on conflicts when they come up, as they have always done.
Most of them have very lax rules because it really isn't a problem that comes up often.
I can accept spots deciding for themselves.
However a lot of sports have decided that trans women who went through male puberty aren't allowed in their women's devision.
Well, it's certainly a controversial opinion. Largely because everyone spouting it is just showing exactly how little they know about the effects of hrt.
And, when you add in the ever asinine "the truth is in the middle" it underscores that because the truth is in the data. This isn't an opinion about blue being prettier than red. It's an "opinion" about the very understood and easy to research effects of hormones on the human body.
And I'll say this part again because no jackass that brays this malarkey ever ponies up, where are all the records broken by trans women? Because there's places they compete with cis women, and there's no giant wave of new records being set.
Do people really not even think to look and see if there's been any fucking changes in sports where trans women compete? Are people that fucking stupid? Oh, wait, what am I saying, of course they are
You do not know jack shit about this subject and need to shut your fucking piehole, you jackass. Fuck, people are so fucking dumb
No. Goddamn why do you people seem to think discrimination against entire demographics of people is justified with the weak excuse of "sports need to be FAIR". I'm sorry but even if you limit to only cis people some competitors have genetic advantages others don't. Inclusion of anyone who wants to compete is way more important. If you actually cared about fairness, and not discrimination, you'd want sports to limit who can compete against who by physical ability, not gender.
Sport has always had devisions and you need to draw lines who is and isn't allowed in a devision.
Example: Under 21 years old Undee 80kg Handicapped Ober 40 years old Women's Etc.
You can't just let anyone compete in any devision else you don't have devisions, and you need to draw lines where those devisions begin and end.
All I'm saying is IMO when it comes to the Women's devision, it's shouldn't be black and white.
"you need to draw lines who is and who isn't allowed in a division" No you don't. You really really don't. "competitive fairness" is not a justification for discrimination of minority demographics. You CAN, in fact, just let anyone compete. It's not that big of a deal, and the inclusion is a lot more important than transphobic fearmongering.
What is the point of devisions if anyone is allowed to compete in them?
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You clearly have no idea what HRT does to a person's body. This is embarassing for you
What if we don't split sports by gender or sex, but instead by physical ability? Those with birthdays towards the end of the school year also have a biological advantage.
Because every sport would be 95% men at the top?
Did you understand my suggestion? There would be different teams, split by approximate physical ability.
I assume you mean something like weight classes in combat sports? No one expects a welterweight to fight a heavyweight. And the existence of either class doesn't reduce the achievements of anyone not in it.
Let's use combat sports, how would you measure "approximate physical ability" ?
If you just go by weight and don't split the genders, biological women won't stand a chance.
I don't know. Weight alone is likely a poor measure, and one we see exploited in combat sports to the harm and even death of competators. Working that specifically out is a question for sports scientists I think, rather than basing it on the feelings and biases of spectators.
What I am talking about is the cultural acceptance of sectioned competition, and that it doesn't reduce the achievements and glory of competators.
Basing the rules of your sports on the feelings and biases of spectators sounds wild.
and is open for abuse, if most spectators want to disqualify a person because they don't like them, they would be able to.
How do you even begin to measure that?
Hight, bone density, muscle weight etc plays such a massive role.
I would leave it up to sports experts to measure it, which I am not one. It's still a good idea, even if I don't have the expertise to work out the details. I can see from other comments though that you are either a troll or very stupid, intentionally or unintentionally misunderstanding what we say to you. So this comment is not to you, it's to all the lurkers and readers of comments that might otherwise be convinced by your arguments without a counterpoint.
And the “top” ability divisions would be mostly men.
We found the bigot
How is that productive? I'm open to having my mind changed and would like to have a conversation about this. Calling someone a bigot does nothing to change their mind and is against the rules of c/controversial
Shut the fuck up you TERF bigot
Just divide categories by testosterone levels
It's not as simple as specifically t levels, but you've got the idea. Splitting leagues by physical ability rather than gender or sex, as they do in fighting with heavyweights, featherweights, etc
It is, else I can claim to be transfem in detransition and use a shitton of testosterone, no doping
What testosterone level you were at during puberty has a big impact on the size of your bones. So it's not that simple.
People who had high testosterone during puberty have much bigger hands than people who didn't, hand size has a impact on sports.
What sports do you get an advantage with bigger hands? Are we going to get rid of cisgender women who have big hands too for those reasons too? I'm not even sure where you're getting this hand size thing anyway
I'd think swimming, but a better example might be basketball.
Going through male puberty would make you taller than you would have otherwise been, and in basketball beign taller gives you an advantage.
With swimming, one would have to push through more body with the same muscle mass (or even less due to suppressed testosterone instead of natural cis woman levels)
Basketball will have some of the same issues to a lesser extent, although the natural different variations will still make up for it. My sister (Cisgender) is taller than I am (Trans girl)