Unpopular Opinion

As an autist with probably PTSD I can't reinforce your point enough, between the call of the void and my borderline sociopathic tendencies I'd be killed five times over if folks judged me for my thoughts. If you look at my comments history you will see my sanitized thoughts, my unfiltered ones admittedly aren't that much worse on a cause and effect level just more impulsive and descriptive.

En vino, veritas.

In, not en, and it is written without the comma.

(Finally the two years of suffering through Latin classes have paid off!)

The book I'm reading (Incognito by David Eagleman) mentioned exactly that.

Robinson and Yarvitz, like many others, suspected that the alcohol had loosened Gibson’s inhibitions and revealed his true self. And the nature of their suspicion has a long history: the Greek poet Alcaeus of Mytilene coined a popular phrase En oino álétheia (In wine there is the truth), which was repeated by the Roman Pliny the Elder as In vino veritas. The Babylonian Talmud contains a passage in the same spirit: “In came wine, out went a secret.” It later advises, “In three things is a man revealed: in his wine goblet, in his purse, and in his wrath.” The Roman historian Tacitus claimed that the Germanic peoples always drank alcohol while holding councils to prevent anyone from lying.

But there are many things that people have "known" for years that turned out to be untrue as our ability to understand the physical world increased. Now we're finding that our unconscious mind accounts for more of what we think than our conscious mind can control.

Mel Gibson is not guilty for having antisemitic thoughts, but he is responsible for expressing them.

Yes, this is where I'm at. I . . . don't know what to make of your second paragraph.

As an old, professional drunk, I can anecdotally confirm this.

An interesting counterpoint, thank you.

I'll disagree. An altered state of mind is altered, by definition, so it's not like people are in their perfect mind. I'm not saying that they should in any way be excused of consequences for their actions, just that an altered state doesn't fully represent who they normally are.

As for conditioned responses, they are learned, yes, but they become an automatic neural response to a stimulus.

We can become aware of these responses, and actively work to inhibit it, but it's an active effort to suppress the ingrained behaviour and when impaired, this suppression would fail.

10 GOTO 10

Why don't you read it for four minutes gay and see if that changes anything?

I think the point is that we are not what we think, we are not our first thoughts.

How we choose to act despite our initial impressions is what defines us, not the thoughts themselves.

Yes we're in agreement about how alcohol affects inhibitions. The question is more about our thoughts. When impaired, we don't hold back from speaking, but are we speaking our true thoughts or just the basic garbage that's been littered on top of our thoughts?

Also to be clear, I'm not excusing the behavior. It's not OK to express racist thoughts regardless of whether it's how you feel when sober or not. And if drinking causes someone to do that, they ought not drink. The purpose of this discussion is more about how we judge the person afterward: do we judge them solely on their actions? Or, as people online usually do, also judge them for their thoughts?

“First Thoughts are the everyday thoughts. Everyone has those. Second Thoughts are the thoughts you think about the way you think. People who enjoy thinking have those. Third Thoughts are thoughts that watch the world and think all by themselves. They’re rare, and often troublesome. Listening to them is part of witchcraft.”

The inimitable Sir Terry Pratchett, GNU.

This is very healthy and emotionally mature of you. We would definitely be doing better as a society if everyone who is capable of doing this would.

third thought, on the toilet: oh i have to shit too

Glad to hear you're doing better. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

This is how my mom was growing up. Didn't matter what did or didn't happen through the week, at least by Friday night you were going to get her real opinion about whatever she didn't like about you, or whatever you may have done to upset her. One time after my brother passed away she jumped on top of me when I was in bed and started clawing at me with her fingernails yelling "The wrong son died". She was as sweet as can be when she was sober, and would pretend like getting black out drunk and having a weekly melt down was totally normal. She finally stopped drinking by the time I was about 25, but I don't remember a single holiday or family vacation where she didn't get absolutely destroyed and act just as mean as she possibly could. It drove my brother to substance abuse which killed him when he was 20. "Mean" drunks are just people who hide their emotions the rest of the time, and they're toxic to be trapped with.

Sounds like a bad spot to be in. Do you have access to professional help?

My dad was an alcoholic. In rehab he/we where thought that at a certain point the person is no longer themselves but a monster who is stuck in a different kind of alcohol instinct.

Either way physical or emotional abuse is never ok. Don’t try to reason that it’s somehow not abuse and you deserve it. Making someone feel worthless about themselves is a red flag. The fact your wife poisons herself to a predictable negative result says she has not figured out life either.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I have been in a similar position in the past. We are in a better place now and sober - what came out of my partner at their worst is not reflective of their true feelings, it was reflective of the traumatic environment they were raised in.

I hope things get better for you.

I've lived this before. You're not alone, even if we can only give digital support.

I hope you have you physical support around you but if ya need someone to talk to, hit me up. More than happy to talk.

Do you have a rule in your relationship that she isn't allowed to drink around you to offer you protection from her?

This is not OK. Regardless of what provokes her, her feelings don't define you and you deserve to be safe.

My point is about how we judge people: we should judge their actions. But many of us also judge their thoughts. Many people concluded from that incident that Gibson was inherently racist and that his apology and defense of his own thoughts were meaningless. I know there have been other incidents with him, which is why I just wanted to use that one incident as an example.