A place to discuss positive changes that can make work more equitable, and to vent about current practices. We are NOT against work; we just want the fruits of our labor to be recognized better.
Our Philosophies:
Our Goals
There are almost 24M millionaires in the US alone. A millionaire in 2026 honestly isn't all that impressive anymore, thanks to inflation. I'm not saying we should feel sorry for them, just that it's not the instant easy classification that it used to be.
As for billionaires, those should not exist, IMHO. A billionaire is a symptom of a broken economy, not a worthy goal.
Edit: fixed a typo.
Assuming we continue under neobliberalism, eventually those billionaires will become trillionares too.
Or a simple currency re-structure could turn those billionaires back into millionaires overnight without changing their relative wealth at all.
Focusing in the word "billionaire" was, in my opinion, a messaging mistake. I always preferred 1% because it scales, though 0.1% or 0.01% might be better.
I don't love how we as a capitalist society have financialized everything into economic terms.
I'm rich now, but I grew up lower middle class (had food security and shelter security, but many aspects of middle class lifestyle were out of my family's reach, like being able to dine at restaurants or go out of town for vacation or afford most of the things or experiences advertised on tv). I was also fairly financially insecure in college and the few years after (playing games with back dated checks to make rent or pay bills, lots of late fees and overdraft fees).
Even in those relatively insecure times, though, I was never anywhere close to 3 (or 6 or 12) months away from homelessness. I had a strong network of friends, family, neighbors, etc., who could keep me on my feet. Some of it was money (where people could chip in to help with an uninsured medical expense or loss to a car or a house), but a lot of it was social, like being able to get a ride from a friend when your car is in the shop, a meal train while someone is sick/hospitalized or bereaving the loss of a family member, etc.
By steering the discussion into purely what can be bought and sold with money in an economy between strangers, I feel like this misses out on what actually makes us secure, and what keeps us from homelessness and food insecurity. Those parts of society should also be protected and bolstered, even if they don't fit cleanly into financial, economic, political, or policy categories.
It also misses who among us are actually the most vulnerable or the most secure. There may be people who have solid net worths on paper but aren't actually resilient against bad months, and other people who might not look like they have much property/wealth/income but actually can manage a crisis just fine.
Being "a millionaire" is outdated. There are plenty of people who are both millionaires and working class. Because the US doesn't do pensions anymore, people have to invest in 401(k)s and the like. It's pretty likely that someone can hit $1m through a combination of a retirement fund and a house, but still be working class. In fact, you can be a millionaire on paper but still be vulnerable to homelessness, especially if you're at an age where you can no longer work.
It's certainly possible to retire on $1m, but it's not going to be a lavish lifestyle if you're playing it safe with your retirement fund. If you want to live near family, or if you have any medical issues, or if you might need to support someone else, it might really be impossible to retire with only $1m.
Agreed. I'm actually pretty close to being a millionaire "on paper," since my house is worth $600k and I've got about $100k in retirement. But the house is mortgaged, and I can't touch the retirement for another 25 years. If I had three very good months, I could probably just barely become a millionaire. But if I had three moderately bad months, I would likely default on my mortgage.
Replace the "m"s with "b"s in the OP, and this is spot on.
Edit: no, not "bonths." Y'all know what I mean.
That’s not how net worth works…
If you have a mortgage, that offsets it and your net worth would only include the equity you hold.
If your $600k house isn't paid off yet, you don't get to count its full value towards your net worth, so you might not be as close to $1m as you say. If it is fully paid off, then you shouldn't have a mortgage to worry about.
But, 3 really bad months could mean a tree fell on your fully paid-off house. It could mean a family member without good health insurance has a medical emergency and you feel like you have to help pay.
It just seems to me that something like $10m makes John Rogers' point much better. If this is a class war, $1 million dollar millionaires really are in the same class as anybody else who works. I don't know quite where the dividing line is. Clearly billionaires are in a whole different class. Same with $100m-aires. $10m is almost certainly set for life. What about $3m? $2m? Maybe age comes into it. How long do you have to make it last, and can you still find a job if you need one? $1m net worth at 25 is different from $1m at 65. $1m at 90 probably puts you back in the "set for life" camp, just because "life" is not likely to last much longer.
If your house is mortgaged, you would have to subtract that mortgage from the calculation, would you not?
Being hobeless?
Hobosexual, when you partner up for the housing situation rather than for romance/love.
A good concept to pass around is contrived desperation or manufactured desperation. The notion that desperation circumstances like the affordability crisis are intentionally developed by the ownership class so that workers will accept low wages, poor benefits, harsh conditions and abuse by their management and colleagues.
An extreme fictional example is in the TV series Squid Game. The players quit in the opening episode after they learn that the stakes of the game are their own lives, and only one final player would survive. But then (in the second ep) they return to their prior lives in which their financial situation is so dire, it compels them to return to the game.
The Epstein child sex ring is a strong non-fictional example of contrived desperation. The girls under Epstein's employ quickly learned they were being groomed to be sexually exploited. But they were drawn from communities that offered few opportunities.¹ Girls quickly learned that they could escape their dire circumstances at home so long as they agreed to play ball, and be complicit in their own sexual exploitation.
We're seeing another example in the US armed forces. All branches are achieving their recruitment quotas. Despite the news of the dire circumstances of the Abraham Lincoln. Despite that the military is deployed in an active theater. Despite that rates of abuse of enlisteds, especially of women, has only escalated since Hegseth's tenure as SoD and his warrior ethos. Despite that the US is considering putting boots on the ground in Iran and Cuba.
And that's because a growing number of people are finding they have no other opportunities to stay above water. People are going into credit-card debt and skipping meals, and working 40+ hours a week. They are three very bad months away from being homeless already, and their numbers are growing.
When the ownership class is sufficiently removed from the working class, it loses touch, and stops empathizing, and then starts contriving desperation to get workers to stay in their place. Unions can be an effective countermeasure, though they are often busted by the political class and the police.
¹ Epstein's early victims were girls from post-Soviet Russia. During the collapse, the most popular career for young women was wage prostitute and children in the streets offering sexual favors for money were commonplace. It was an entire failing nation of desperate teenage girls.
That's a lot of words, and in Idiocracy, they have a word to use.
I appreciate this well-articulated argument, though.
I honestly think the poor understanding of math is to blame for a lot of our problems. People don't understand exactly how massive a billion dollars are, they don't understand probability so they play the lottery. Most people get visibily angry when I've explained exactly how much money the Epstein class is hoarding.
If you counted 1 second every second until you reached 1 million it would be something like 11 days.. if you kept counting like that until you reached 1 billion it would take you something like 32 years. If you were to CONTINUE COUNTING like that until you reached 1 trillion, over 31,500 years would have passed. Nobody needs a Trillion dollars. Hell nobody needs a billion. To defend billionaires is to defend the dragon pillaging your cities.
Because of that whole exponential thing, millionaires and ten-millionaires are actually closer to the rest of us working class folk than they are their billionaire owner-class brethren.
And this is going to be important when the ultra-wealthy decide to reveal their less-rich near-peers aren't actually in the oligarchs club, and don't get to live in Thiel's Rapture-style hypercities with the real people.
You know the difference between a millionaire and a billionaire? About one billion dollars.
But yeah, like the other commenter said: $10m puts you WELL outside of working class. That's enough to retire on anywhere on the world, and with a high degree of luxury outside of a handful of the most expensive cities. That money, invested by anybody with half a brain, will make enough money per year than many extremely skilled professions make. We're talking doctor salary without doing any actual work. They're not buying senators wholesale like billionaires, but their house rep probably knows them by name.
That's true, but if you have $10m, you can live off the "work" your money does for the rest of your life. If you have decent, conservative financial planning, you are in no danger of homelessness no matter how bad 3 months are.
Billionaires are today's emperors, but someone with $10m is at least a member of the aristocracy and is living off the labour of others, rather than having to live off their own work.
Millionaires are working class. $1B - $1M is ~$1B.
$1M ≈ 2 average single family homes
$1B ≈ 2000 average single family homes
Seriously. My partner and I are millionaires. We're almost 40 and have a net worth just shy of $2M. We've a couple of DINKS. We're both engineers, are pretty good with numbers, and understand compound interest. We got on the property ladder pretty early. I bought my first townhouse in 2012 pretty much right at the bottom of the housing market. We've moved twice since then and have benefited from the full rise in house prices.
Our net worth is a little under $2M. About $10k of that is checking and savings. Another $80k in a taxable brokerage account as an emergency fund. $450k in home equity. The rest is in retirement accounts such as 401ks and IRAs.
We are working class. The closest either of us have ever come to hiring someone is when we've hired a plumber or electrician to fix something at our home. I've technically owned a business, but just for my own freelance tutoring work. And the closest either of us have ever come to being a landlord was when I had a couple of roommates at that first townhouse I bought.
We're doing very well; we have no complaints. And while we've achieved some modest amount of wealth, it's not ultimately about living large or in luxury. We live well below our means. We recently bought our first new car in many years, a new Toyota Corolla. It replaced a 15 year old Corolla that my partner bought new. We buy affordable reliable vehicles and drive them til the wheels fall off. I still get most of my clothes at thrift stores. We have a house worth over $600k, but our mortgage payment is just $2k, and that's on a 15-year note. A few years ago when I was in grad school, I was literally a millionaire who road the bus.
But again, we're not trying to get rich for the sake of getting rich. We don't want to own some huge company and lord over a room full of workers. We're not trying to hoard the largest possible amount of money we can. We don't view wealth as a lifetime high score. It's simply a means to achieve stability and safety. We're on the path to early retirement. We hope to retire by the time we're 50. We need to save up a couple of million not because we want to live in luxury, but simply because it's the only way to have a decent stable and safe retirement in this capitalist hellscape we live in. In a world with universal healthcare and a universal basic income, we would have no need for millions in retirement savings. If my partner and I each brought in say, $20k a year from UBI? If we had a paid off house and also didn't have to worry about healthcare? We could live quite well off just that $40k per year.
I'm a millionaire and I support much higher taxes on millionaires. I do this because ultimately the point for us for having a couple of million is not to have a couple of million. The point is to have safety and stability in our lives. And the more secure the social safety net, the less the need to cover those needs privately.
Can’t even buy a house for $1m where I live. So not rich.
Yeah, millionaire status is rapidly becoming meaningless. Lots of people who have a mortgage will probably be millionaires when they pay it off, but they can't buy anything for it because they still need a roof over their head.
I think 10 million now is the million of the past. Call it inflation. It's entirely driven by ridiculous housing prices (which are mysteriously not counted in inflation figures).
Put 5 randos in a room and one is a millionaire on paper.
It means nothing to be a millionaire if you include house car etc.
You can’t “spend” those items.
With 3 million dollars in liquid assets (ie: not a house), you can bring in about $120k from the safest of investments. Just a high yield savings account. Fully insured.
With an index fund, you can bring in $300k.
That's enough to live on, given how many people live on that much or less from their job.
So some millionaires may work, but they're not really the same.
But most "millionaires" are paper millionaires — they have a house and a car and a retirement fund and an emergency fund. Upper-middle-class, for sure, but they're still working or retired from a lifetime of working.
That's why I specified liquid, not-a-house, money.
Polymarket and crypto have some people believing they're only three days from being a millionaire
If the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math, polymarket is the lottery for people who are bad at economics. Crypto is a religion for people who are bad at tech.
I mean it's true for Polymarket, you could just place a bet on a local forest catching fire and then light it.
Edit to be super clear that I'm not condoning this behavior, just pointing out one single instance of how fucked up sites like Polymarket and Kalshi actually are.
There's been investigations into people doing stuff like this, and they do not get paid out. Like the guy who bet there would be a streaker at the Superbowl, and then streaked at the Superbowl.
Yeah, and I'm sure Elon makes nothing off of the daily bet on the number of times he'll tweet, too.
Nuh-uh. I have an uncle who lives two doors down from a lady whose nail stylist's daughter's teacher just won 10 million dollars from a scratch off lottery ticket.
Congrats to that teacher, but random events with astronomically low odds don't refute everyday reality. The vast majority of people are a lot closer to poverty than they'll ever be to financial independence.
Well, I'M okay. I'm at least four bad months away from homeless so no sense planning to change the system any.
If I was in the USA, I’d be 6 months. But I live in Spain, so I’m 13 months but a whole lot less worried.
Well a million dollars isn't that much anymore.
And no matter how good the facade, I will always reflect my white trash roots.
And now I cant really remember what the point is I was going to make. Damnit. I hate it when that happens.
Oh well, never mind.
Feels like being a millionaire now is what it takes to live without fear of incipient poverty
I don't think even a million would do that anymore.
My brother's dog ended up having Addison's. The vet bill was about $10,000. It all happened so fast. He is a really beloved pet and my brothers best friend. How do you say to the Vet just kill him, I can't afford it.
He did retire with a million. And has been living on it and SS. But the pile is diminishing quickly and both he and his wife have developed serious medical issues. And the car on its last legs.
And he looks at how many years the doctor gave him to live, then at the size of the bills, and the pile of the cash and the numbers just don't work out.
And I know this means nothing to 30 something looking at a lifetime of Walmart wages. But with his health fading it still is scary.
Sure, but many people who aren't really grappling with where they are in class struggle will still see that and believe it makes intuitive sense because of some aggrieved entitlement. Lemmy is a great platform to find people who know some element of socialist or Marxist politics, but then think the problem is "oligarchs" who are just exceptionally naughty and greedy and not like, a system that produces food and fabrics for insanely cheap and specifically to their benefit.