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Why are the Betazoids described as an empathic species in SFA? Troi was an empath, but that's because she's half human. Lwxana and the Betazoid "delegates" in LDS are all telepathic. They all regularly use telepathy to speak to each other and to humans they're close with. Why are the Betazoids in Academy signing to each other to communicate subtly instead of thinking?

Also, was the Betazoid president's taking off of the speech device supposed to be symbolic of something in lore? I know the actsman is Deaf, but is there some kind of link between Deafness/muteness and the psionic wall?

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[–] kieron115@startrek.website 3 points 14 hours ago

Maybe the telepathic betazoids were busy holding up their planet-wide telepathic forcefield?

[–] hallettj@leminal.space 9 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

It seems like some retconning, with the writers deciding that empathic characters are more interesting for storytelling than fully telepathic characters. It can be hard to create drama when someone on screen automatically knows what everyone else knows.

The Betazoids also didn't have black irises, which has previously been a distinguishing feature - albeit a feature that most viewers don't seem to notice. Given the many, many franchise references included in the first two episodes it looks like the showrunners are aware of established details, and that both the lack of telepathy and eye color are deliberate choices.

Edit: I read a suggestion here that maybe they do have dark contacts, except for Tarima, the president's daughter. Maybe the actor didn't want to wear contacts all day every day?

My impression was the president being deaf didn't have anything to do with the plot, but was probably about showing that deaf people are people who have stories too. The Betazoids delegates signing and speaking to each other might be something Troi has said previously: that it's rude to communicate telepathically among non-telepaths. But Lwaxana does it anyway because she doesn't care. Or it might have been to avoid confusion: "they're empathic with other species, but telepathic with each other? What is going on?" I don't know what is the significance of taking off the translation device.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 11 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

I think it's complicated by the fact that Deanna Troi is the Betazoid "prototype," but as you noted, she was presented as somehow "weaker" than other Betazoids due to her half-human physiology. And even then, she was capable of full telepathic communication with Riker.

But after that, we had stuff like Lon Suder in "Meld," saying things like, "Most Betazoids can sense other people's emotions," without mentioning telepathy at all. Even Memory Alpha seems to have resorted to using the term "telepathy/empathy" here and there - it all seems rather messy.

[–] data1701d@startrek.website 9 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Based on what @ValueSubtracted mentioned, maybe the signing is something to do with when you’re Tan Elbrum-level powerful, telepathic communication isn’t a good idea?

Also, I felt like they did demonstrate some telepathic, not merely empathic, ability in the episode; I’ve only watched it once, so I can’t quite recall my evidence, but it seemed they could get surface-level thoughts beyond emotion, like “you’ve lost someone” instead of just “grief”. I wonder if it’s a consent/pushing too hard thing, somewhat like soothing and rioting in Mistborn; if the average Betazoid tries to get beyond the surface level of thought, the target will be able to tell, and their privacy will feel invaded.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 12 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I've been digging a little deeper, and in "Ménage à Troi", Deanna tells Lwaxana that it's "impolite not to speak aloud" when amongst non-telepaths. It's very possible that the president is simply deaf, and they were using sign language to maintain those manners.

[–] entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah, that was the feeling I got. President is deaf. They were avoiding being subtle. Gotta say it's kinda funny to see aliens using ASL, though. I know it's no sillier than all of them speaking English, but it's a little more visual so it did kinda make me chuckle

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 3 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

I guess if "Federation Standard" is just American English, the common sign language might as well be ASL...

[–] entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 12 hours ago

Exactly. It's objectively not any sillier, just made me chuckle somehow. I guess it was surprising but in the same moment I had no idea why it should surprise me, y'know?

[–] usernamefactory@lemmy.ca 7 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I did wonder about that, but it's entirely possible Lwaxana was on the more powerful end of a whole spectrum of levels of telepathy that exist on Betazed. Add on to that an 800 year gap during which things might have progressed in any number of ways, and I think it makes sense to accept Academy's portrayal on its own terms and wait and see if we get more backstory/explanation as we go.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 5 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

There definitely seems to be a spectrum - on one end, there's Lon Suder, who says he can't read much of anything, and on the other, there's Tam Elbrun, whose abilities were completely out of control.

[–] usernamefactory@lemmy.ca 5 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

And, of course, Tarima is another example from Academy itself, so presumably they'll delve into it a bit.

Although, thinking about it, I wonder if the 100 years of isolation from other Federation races might play into this. It would make sense if communicating with different races took training and practice, and it would be thematically appropriate if it took time for the Betazoids to relearn how to read human minds.

[–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 2 points 14 hours ago

I kept thinking throughout the episode that maybe they need the sign language because they're spending their powers on the wall.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 6 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Weird admin question here - did you do something on your end to somehow switch this post to a different community?

I'm seeing this show up as a c/startrek post with the c/daystrominstitute sidebar, which is....a new one.

[–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 5 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah, that's a PieFed feature. I realised Daystrom Institute fit better, so I moved it. I had no idea how Lemmy was going to handle it, but since it's the same instance I decided to give it a try and see what happens. Or in other words, to boldly go where no one has gone before.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 4 points 14 hours ago

A learning experience for us all!

[–] Eeyore_Syndrome@sh.itjust.works 6 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Maybe the daughter is too sensitive to telepathy?

She had that inhibitor on because if she goes out of control, bad things happen.

Or something.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 6 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

The episode definitely doesn't work as well if the Betazoids can simply read everyone's minds and know their true intentions.

Which is sort of the whole problem with telepaths.

[–] StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website 3 points 16 hours ago

I’m hoping that we’ll get another perspective through Tarina’s brother Ocam Sadal.

I noticed that he gave her information on what Caleb was thinking beyond what she was able to pick up on her own with the inhibitor on.

He’s very up front and Luaxana-like. I like him a lot already.

I think he’s going to be a great addition as a roommate to Caleb and Darem.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 4 points 21 hours ago

These are good questions.

I hope they didn't just goof.