this post was submitted on 29 Dec 2025
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[–] IcyToes@sh.itjust.works 126 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (10 children)

This why any good engineer would bake it into their estimates when working around the area. I think Martin Fowler covers this in Refactoring. Eiher that or it was Kent Beck in TDD. Both books complement each other really well.

A good civil engineer doesn't ask a Project Manager if they can add in structural supports. A good software engineer shouldn't ask to build things right.

"Before we build x, we need to adapt the foundations by resolving x problem. If we don't get this right, it'll increase the chances of bugs surfacing in production and would make our team look like a joke."

[–] tiramichu@sh.itjust.works 64 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

Bad PO: "So it will only increase the chance of bugs if we don't do it? There won't necessarily be any. So we can skip it and just put the feature in."

I hope you have a good PO who is on the same page as you, but to a bad PO, it still sounds optional.

A civil engineer doesn't say "If we don't put supports there's a chance the ceiling will fall in and people may die," because history has shown there are plenty of unscrupulous project managers who are quite willing to take construction risks, even with people's lives. As a result of this there are now plenty of laws in construction, and a civil engineer has a convenient fallback of saying "If we don't put supports it won't pass inspection, and we won't get paid."

Everyone wants to get paid.

In software we don't have many laws we can fall back on to justify our work, but we can still treat our tech debt and refactoring as if it's equally mandatory.

"To add feature x, we need to resolve problem y. The feature can't be added until we've completed this prerequisite."

[–] WanderingThoughts@europe.pub 28 points 6 days ago (1 children)

My current boss: so I sold this at least 10% below budget and we have to make it work.

[–] flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works 23 points 6 days ago (1 children)
[–] WanderingThoughts@europe.pub 18 points 6 days ago

Reality is already fucking him sideways but he keeps escaping reality. He's like a financial Houdini.

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[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 35 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Just build and deploy it! We have the shareholders to think of!

[–] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 23 points 6 days ago (1 children)

This person has high level management energy

[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 7 points 6 days ago

Me? No. But I've met plenty of those types.

[–] Michal@programming.dev 15 points 6 days ago (2 children)

"Are you willing to own the risk? If so, what will it look like? Can you budget additional time for addressing these bugs, and draft contingency plans?"

[–] Bazoogle@lemmy.world 12 points 6 days ago (2 children)

"You're overthinking it" - real response from my management

[–] Arcka@midwest.social 2 points 5 days ago

You're not alone

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[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 11 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

*Sticks fingers in ears* Can't hear you!

[–] IcyToes@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 days ago (1 children)

"I only know 1 (credible) way to build it. I'll take x days. I'll go right ahead with that."

[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago (4 children)

We need it yesterday! Just get it done!

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[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 29 points 6 days ago (3 children)

The big difference is a civil/structural engineer has to individually certify a plan sets and take legal responsibility for it. The project manager can't override them.

They can fire them and hire another engineer, but even if they found someone to stamp bad plans for a fee, the original engineer could report the new engineer and have their credentials yanked.

We don't have that in software engineering. And outside of critical software we don't need it. When the audio fucks up in Teams and you have to leave and re-enter the meeting, people don't die.

[–] definitemaybe@lemmy.ca 22 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Fuck Teams. The buggiest, most crash prone mess I've even been forced to use. They keep bolting on new, unnecessary "features" that only selectively work on some of their "supported" platforms.

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We don’t have that in software engineering. And outside of critical software we don’t need it. When the audio fucks up in Teams and you have to leave and re-enter the meeting, people don’t die.

I had a co-worker who was writing remote control software for a baseball-throwing machine. Not exactly "critical software" but he ended up firing a 125 mph knuckleball a foot above a 10-year-old kid's head.

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[–] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 16 points 6 days ago (4 children)

Counterpoint: tHe ShArEhOlDeRs SaY jUsT sHiP iT

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 10 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Yeah ultimately CivEs get to withhold a signature and if they don't sign it's illegal to build. Software doesn't need a PE

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[–] Sylvartas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 6 days ago (3 children)

The difference there is that our project manager guy is afraid they're gonna go to prison if they don't let you add those supports and something goes wrong. But for the software dude, building things properly is unfortunately mostly a concern for you and the other software engineers, and mr project manager doesn't have that much of an incentive to let you do that

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[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 9 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Sure, then you get outbid by another contractor who is willing to cut corners.

[–] IcyToes@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's why you get jobs at the consultancy that has to clean up those messes after companies are burnt enough. Most companies that get burnt will feel the reputation damage and go for reputable ones with integrity who respect push back.

Usually you're not selling work on a feature by feature basis. It's usually on huge projects or multi year deals.

[–] fx242@lemmy.world 7 points 6 days ago

Companies don't remember or learn. People come and go and after a software lifecycle everything is forgotten as the top management gets refreshed.

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[–] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 8 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

A good project manager understands technical debt.

Edit: moderately good

[–] galoisghost@aussie.zone 8 points 6 days ago (2 children)

and the response will invariably be: “Is there a way we can just ship feature x now and fix up the other stuff after?”

[–] Rikj000@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 6 days ago (7 children)

Just increase your time estimate,
calculate in the time needed to refactor,
but don't tell them you're gonna refactor.

Works out most of the time.
Only when they ask why the estimate is so long, then you explain your reasoning behind it, and then they might reply with your statement and block your refactoring idea.

However, getting time to refactor most of the time, is aleady way better then never being allowed to do so.

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[–] hkspowers@lemmy.today 42 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

This seems more like an example of procrastination not technical debt. Technical debt as I understand it requires a previous decision to impeed new decisions/progress because it wasn't done properly the first time.

A better example would be he wants to add a brick chimney to the roof but can't because the roof is made of straw thatch and can't support the weight, so it would need to be rebuilt first out of timber, and then a chimmney can be added.

[–] Michal@programming.dev 39 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

It's an abstract analogy but i think it works... When the roof is really needed, it's not possible to fix it because rain / deadline.

When it's sunny, no deadlines, the hole doesn't impede any work, so there's no need to fix it, difficult to convince PM that it needs fixing.

[–] bonenode@piefed.social 81 points 6 days ago

How is this so accurate...

[–] NachBarcelona@piefed.social 57 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

translate from french

Outstanding.

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[–] pmk@piefed.ca 40 points 6 days ago (1 children)

This reminds me of some issues in my relationship. Some problems that never gets solved.

[–] SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone 22 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I highly recommend solving the important ones and learning to let the rest go, speaking as someone whose marriage just exploded over exactly that.

[–] pmk@piefed.ca 12 points 6 days ago (3 children)

I'm sorry to hear that. How are you doing now? If you don't mind me asking, if there was a point where things were still salvageable, do you think you were both aware of the direction things were heading? Did the realization come at the same time for both of you, or at different times that it was beyond that point? What were the critical signs?

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More like: you know when you get home after a long day and you just toss your clothes wherever, then when you wash them you just toss the clean clothes on your bed rather than putting them away properly because 'i know which ones are clean'?

Tech debt is all the minutes you spend in the morning and each week on laundry day, sniffing stuff to see if it needs to be washed, and the massive organizational task you'll have to do if you ever buy lots more clothes or think you might bring company to bed or ever have to move to a new place.

Or: 'tech debt is at home in the mirror. That is its address.' 'yeah I hate kids.'

[–] CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world 10 points 5 days ago (1 children)

This is an explanation on why it never gets fixed.

The technical debt would be the additional damage being done to the rest of the house each time it rains.

[–] filcuk@lemmy.zip 6 points 5 days ago

Shall we renovate?
Yeah sure, just spend 4 x more to carefully work around the roof hole! Install waterproof furniture! Give out umbrellas to guests!

[–] smeg@feddit.uk 37 points 6 days ago

As an aside, a Scottie dog called Haggis wearing a tam o' shanter is an adorable character for a children's book

[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 5 days ago

This is possibly the best analogy I've ever seen.

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 11 points 6 days ago (5 children)

What's with the unnecessary use of highlighter?

[–] m33@lemmy.zip 5 points 5 days ago

Well, the PM really needs to understand so, like in excel: yellow background on important cells. This is muscle memory, right ?

[–] titanicx@lemmy.zip 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Simple. To highlight the hole in his roof.

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 4 points 5 days ago

You mean hole in (...) roof

[–] beveradb@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 days ago

I suspect the person who made the screenshot searched for something including the words "hole in roof" on Google Books - this style of yellow highlighting looks the same as the highlight auto applied for search terms there

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[–] FranciscoLopez@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Perfect ELI6 😂 Tech debt is that leaky roof: you can ignore it for a while, but every new ‘feature’ gets harder until you finally fix it.

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This is horror. I'd ask how you get a project manager job without understanding the concept, but I know.

[–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Oddly enough there are roof patch compounds that works in wet areas. Have used them

[–] rizzothesmall@sh.itjust.works 22 points 6 days ago

Resolution: Issue solved by applying patch.

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