this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2025
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Canada just lost its measles-free status. So here’s the question..

If an unvaccinated child spreads measles to someone else’s kid, why shouldn’t the parents be liable in small-claims court?

I’m not talking about criminal charges, just basic responsibility. If your choice creates the risk you should have to prove you weren’t the reason someone else’s child got sick.

Is that unreasonable?

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[–] leastaction@lemmy.ca 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

No, they should just not be allowed to prevent their children from being vaccinated.

[–] Yezzey@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 days ago

I don't believe people should be forced to do it, I think that they should be held liable tho.

[–] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago

Or their own. Lock them the fuck up.

[–] n7gifmdn@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 days ago

Should they, yes, will they, not in the west.

[–] cv_octavio@piefed.ca 78 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Offering a generous tax credit for proof of vaccination ought to resolve the problem easily enough, given the simple-minded and grift-oriented nature of your average antivaxxer.

[–] CanadianCarl@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)
[–] cv_octavio@piefed.ca 1 points 3 days ago

Yeah, I'm gonna go out on what feels like a very sturdy limb here and say that herd immunity wouldn't be compromised if everyone who could did, and everyone who can't didn't.

And I'm pretty sure that we are:

A) not referring to this demographic in our thread

B) in general, ok with legit medical exemptions, see above for why.

[–] Contextual_Idiot@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I wonder if the numbers could back that up? Like the cost of treatment of an unvaccinated child getting a preventable disease, versus a vaccinated child getting the same disease? Also, the number of children in each group? No vaccine is 100% after all.

There could be an actual cost to the healthcare system for choosing to not vaccinate. If that's the case, creating an incentive like a tax credit for vaccinating could be an effective way of reducing cost overall.

I'd like to see someone study this, if they haven't already.

[–] cv_octavio@piefed.ca 17 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It seems so fundamental to the equation "how much of a village it should take". To me, that's the only hard metric that matters (not on an individual level, by any means, but averaged out, over the long term trend).

What is the cost to each of us as individuals so that we may all, on average, enjoy a better quality of life than we do today.

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[–] Yezzey@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago

Naw gotta hit em in the pocketbooks.

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[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 59 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I'm personally of the opinion that refusing to vaccinate your kids should not be a choice parents get to make. Just like how you can't choose to starve your children, no matter how deeply and truly you believe that we can draw all our necessary sustenance from the air.

In Canada we have a legal concept called the "Duty of persons to provide necessaries."

Here's the relevant legal code:

215 (1) Every one is under a legal duty (a) as a parent, foster parent, guardian or head of a family, to provide necessaries of life for a child under the age of sixteen years;

https://www.criminalnotebook.ca/index.php/Failing_to_Provide_the_Necessaries_of_Life_(Offence)

I firmly believe that vaccinations should be deemed one of the "necessaries of life" under this article of the criminal code. Like food, water, clothing, shelter, etc. You shouldn't have a choice in this matter. We shouldn't even be talking about whether or not that choice harms someone else's kid, because that's actually beside the point. At a basic level, we as a society have already agreed that children's right to be properly sheltered and cared for outweighs their parents rights to decide how they live. The idea that there should be an exception for vaccines - something that can mean the difference between life and death - is absolutely ridiculous.

[–] quick_snail@feddit.nl 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Excuse me, I'm breath-tarian /s

[–] leftzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com 38 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Parents who don't vaccinate their children without a good medical reason should be treated as any other parent who intentionally abuses, harms, mistreats, or abandons their children, simple as that.

If they harm other people on top of that, then that should probably count as attempted murder plus aggravated assault and battery, or some equivalent.

It's a shame that rampant wilful idiocy with intent to cause harm and mayhem isn't a criminal offence, though, because they should also be charged with that.

[–] aeternum@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 1 week ago

You know, we eliminated smallpox in the wild, and mostly eliminated polio, by giving vaccines. Fuck these moronic idiotic parents not vaxxing their kiddos. It ABSOLUTELY should count as child abuse to not vax your kid.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Completely agree. I said more in my own comment, but if you're interested, here's the relevant criminal code that backs up what you're saying; https://www.criminalnotebook.ca/index.php/Failing_to_Provide_the_Necessaries_of_Life_(Offence)

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[–] adespoton@lemmy.ca 21 points 1 week ago (5 children)

I’d argue that parents should be liable to the state, not the victim or their family. This is a societal issue, and civil liability won’t fix it.

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[–] darkdemize@sh.itjust.works 18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I don't disagree with this mindset, but I do want to say that it should be on the plaintiff to prove your child caused the problem rather than the defendant to prove they did not. Proving a negative is damn near impossible in court.

[–] Yezzey@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I don’t disagree with this mindset, but I do want to say that it should be on the plaintiff to prove your child caused the problem rather than the defendant to prove they did not. Proving a negative is damn near impossible in court.

If your choices raise everyone else’s risk, it’s fair that you carry some of the burden. Courts deal in probability every day.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 week ago

No, we can't start throwing out burden of proof when it suits us.

I've argued elsewhere in this thread that the solution is to obligate parents to provide vaccinations, just like they're obligated to provide food, water, clothing, shelter, etc. This is the basic legal duty of care that all parents have towards their children, and it should extend to vaccines. This is both a logical application of existing law - rather than requiring new law - and incredibly simple to prove in court. If parents are obligated to vaccinate their kids, all a cop or social worker has to do is ask for the proof of vaccination. There's no balance of proof to consider, and no knotty problems of untangling exactly how someone else's kid got sick.

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[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Agreed - it's pretty unlikely that you'd be able to prove something like that.

I suppose you could try to apply precedents surrounding HIV disclosure, but I think it'd be a tough sell.

Edit: And to be clear, even in that situation, we're talking about disclosure, not actual treatment-related choices.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 16 points 1 week ago

Its impossible to prove you caught an airborne disease from a specific individual.

[–] magnetosphere@fedia.io 16 points 1 week ago

It’s not an unreasonable idea. The parents should absolutely be held liable.

Exact responsibility would be virtually impossible to prove, though. Even a lawyer who graduated at the bottom of their class from a terrible law school could easily defend the accused parents.

[–] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 week ago (2 children)

If it can be proven. Yes. But there are too many variables to be able to prove it usually.

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[–] MyTurtleSwimsUpsideDown@fedia.io 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Liable for what? Medical expenses, funeral costs? Expected life earnings? What about the homeschool/tutoring expenses of immunocompromised kids that didn’t catch measles because the were withdrawn from school due to fear of an outbreak. I’m not trying to throw out straw men to muddy the water, but where do you draw the line between someone’s actions and their consequences.

I’m not talking about criminal charges, just basic responsibility.

Maybe we should be. There are consequences to reckless driving and drunk driving independent of whether you actually harm someone because this actions are inherently dangerous to others.

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[–] malle_yeno@pawb.social 7 points 1 week ago

Not an antivaxxer, but that sounds difficult to prove. Even for mere liability, how would you demonstrate on a balance of probabilities that someone got sick specifically because someone else didn't vaccinate?

(Also I really hope small-claims court isn't the appropriate avenue for trying something as serious as infecting a child with measles)

[–] anonymous111@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I think there are a few issues:

  1. How do you prove kid A gave kid B measels?

  2. Why isn't kid B vaccinated? Because they don't need to be, group immunity. Well that is no longer true with anti vax so...

  3. Kid B then gives kid C measels, so kid B's parents are now liable.

  4. Your in small claims court. You have to prove damages. So you're going for loss of earning for an adult looking after the kid + pain and suffering. Is that payout going to be worth filing papers, legal advice etc.

You'd be better passing a law to mandate vaccines, but that won't be politically viable.

Just my thoughts - am not Canadian.

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[–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 3 points 1 week ago (6 children)

How are you going to deal with pesky things like religious freedoms and the Mennonites/similar cults?

[–] Yezzey@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 week ago (7 children)

They are still free to practice their religion.

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[–] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 week ago

Quarrentine - No public schools or markets, or public places if there is an outbreak and unvaccinated.

[–] snooggums@piefed.world 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Ignore them when they harm society. They don't get the freedom to commit murder and they shouldn't get the freedom to not follow public health requirement just because they have some mumbo jumbo excuse.

[–] veroxii@aussie.zone 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Gonna show my age here and I'm not from the USA, but I remember in the 80s the doctors and nurses would come to the school one day, we'd all have to line up, and we all got vaccinated with something. Pretty sure there was no parental consent involved.

We've gotten a bit too soft on some things.

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[–] Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

Religious freedom can go suck a dick when it harms other people.

According to the Church of the JustPulledANewReligionOutOfMyAss, our Chief Papa Ghost said I need to break your kneecaps then push you onto a busy highway: your sacrifice is nothing personal, but if I don't do it, I'll spend eternity being spanked by fire goats. Doesn't make sense to me either, but Chief Papa Ghost works in mysterious ways, so I don't have a choice, you see? It's my religion!

...except if I actually tried that, I'd spend the rest of my life in prison, cuz even religious freedom doesn't give me the right to kill people 'because God'.

At least not directly: I can still kill you without consequence by spreading a completely avoidable pathogen to you, but giving that scenario the "wtf?!" treatment is pretty much why OP made this thread, lol.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, Chief Papa Ghost had a kid out of wedlock with a lower-dimensional being, and it just so happens that he's made of BBQ twist Fritos and Rootbeer, so I'm gonna go commune.

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