Via Berkeley Mews
Yeah, but sometimes that really is enough
this post was submitted on 30 May 2024
19 points (91.3% liked)
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Not enough for voters who are undecided about whether to vote or not.
Democrats win when turnout is high. It's not enough to be better than the opponent, to win they must beat apathy.
The two current candidates are so far apart the people who claim to be undecided are ignorant or stupid, willingly or otherwise. I'd understand riding the fence between Biden and Bernie, even if I've made my choice between them, but between Trump and Biden?
That's the kind of person who is undecided if they want to drive to work or walk down the middle of i-95
I think you are perhaps uninformed about the economic state of the poor and working class. Biden hasn't done a whole lot about people's grocery bills doubling and tripling, or the soaring increases in rent while the housing supply has remained artificially low, but he's made sure that blank checks for war appear out of thin air at every turn.
Can't expect to win an election like this when people can't afford to miss a day of work.
Yeahhhh, no.
Like the original commenter said, you are either ignorant or stupid.
Anyone who actively lived during Trump's awful years in office has all the info we need to NOT vote for that fucking orange idiot, and instead CLAMBER to anyone with ANY semblance of sanity.
If you honestly think that Biden losing will help anyone in any way whatsoever (besides Trump and his little rich bastards who are as evil as he is), you, and anyone else who feels that way, are a lost cause.
Anyone who is eligible to vote actively lived through the trump years. And a third of those voters disagree with you. Calling them stupid is not an effective way to help them change their minds or voting decisions.
Day to day economic realities matter to the average voter.
In a system where all the non-winning votes are lost in a step and not counted at the end, like the USA form of weak democracy, this becomes a valid tactic.
It's not only the presidential vote that's like this, but ALL fucking votes. It's astonishing how weak the US system is.
And still some see the US constitution as this pinnacle of democracy when it's vastly outdated by now
Even the founding fathers anticipated a lot of reforms and for the whole thing to become obsolete quite soon but yet here we are with people worshipping them as this infallible being and weighting their words on a scale as if it's impossible for them to be wrong
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Pretty fucking relevant in this thread it seems.
"Everyone who disagrees with me is a secret agent"
No, not everyone that disagrees with me is a secret agent. A good chunk of them are. The rest are the idiots that believe and agree with them.
I'm still waiting for a good argument about how no voting or voting 3rd party gets better outcomes.
Maybe I'm the idiot for thinking there might be a good argument for it. Who knows?
The rest are the idiots that believe and agree with them.
Like any good conspiracy, it accounts for any possible contrary evidence one might encounter. If you find someone you disagree with irl, or someone online who doesn't seems like a secret agent, then it's simple - they're just people who have been manipulated by secret agents! The secret agents are still surrounding you and influencing every aspect of your life, regardless of silly things like "evidence" or "falsifiability." It's completely indistinguishable from a schizophrenic convinced they're surrounded by lizard people.
I’m still waiting for a good argument about how no voting or voting 3rd party gets better outcomes.
It's pretty simple. In a negotiation, having a credible threat of not cooperating gives you more bargaining power than if you show up like, "I will accept any deal you give me, I need this!" Voting is a negotiation. If politicians know that you'll vote for them no matter what you do, then they have no reason to listen to your concerns, whereas if you say, "I'll only vote for you if you do this, otherwise I'll vote third party" then they have an incentive to do the thing in order to earn your vote.
Voting is a negotiation? Since when? Voting is a privilege that the ruling class can take away from us at any time if they think they can get away with it. Something kind of like what Trump did after the last election. I remember Jan 6th.
It's always been a choice between a shit cupcake and a poop cookie. The best thing you can do is minimize damages so you can keep trying to organize for 4 more years or at the very least, stay out of the camps.
Also, if you don't vote or vote 3rd party, they don't have to think or care about you anymore. Your not a vote they need to get, because your throwing your vote away. Its basic first past the post voting strategy. I don't like first past the post for this reason.
If you are bot, "foreign spy", or whatever, your post was good at muddying the water, keep it up, your master will be pleased. If your not, this argument was bad and unconvincing try again. Not even conservative voters are dumb enough to vote 3rd party.
Also, if you don’t vote or vote 3rd party, they don’t have to think or care about you anymore. Your not a vote they need to get, because your throwing your vote away.
And if you always vote for them no matter what they do, then they don't have to think or care about you anymore, because they know you'll vote for them regardless.
If you are bot, “foreign spy”, or whatever, your post was good at muddying the water, keep it up, your master will be pleased.
Oh thank you, I actually am a foreign spy. Do you think you could rate me 5 stars? I really need this job.
Ugh it's really tiresome to keep coming up with bits to make fun of this conspiracy theory. Can't y'all get into like flat earth stuff instead, so I can have some new material to work with? It's all the same crap.
And if you always vote for them no matter what they do, then they don’t have to think or care about you anymore, because they know you’ll vote for them regardless.
You got it! That is the shit system in the US.
Oh thank you, I actually am a foreign spy. Do you think you could rate me 5 stars? I really need this job.
Lol, good sense of humor.
I sympathize, it gets depressing. That is why, I don't blame anyone from no voting or 3rd party voting. I just wish people would do that without justifying it. Not make it out to be this big brained strategy. There are a lot of good meaning ignorant people who will read that stuff and think they are materially improving things by no voting or 3rd party voting. The progressive fight is super hard and a pain in the butt. If you need a rest King/Queen, take it.
The only real way to get change to happen is getting enough people educated and organized to turn the democrat or republican candidate into a 3rd party candidate by numbers, that is the only way they suffer. Until then we have to play their stupid game.
The only real way to get change to happen is getting enough people educated and organized to turn the democrat or republican candidate into a 3rd party candidate by numbers, that is the only way they suffer.
And how exactly do you envision that happening without anyone ever making the case for it or trying to justify that position?
What do you mean? A lot of people are doing that. It's not like we get one progressive action every 4 years. Why do you think people organize and run for local government? Why do you think I am trying to spread leftist ideas on the internet? Even people who run as a 3rd party candidate are helping by spreading ideas. Bernie didn't make it to the finish line, but in trying he did a lot of good work spreading ideas and making people think.
If we wake up enough people, the gears in the machine will start turning and we won't need to vote 3rd party because we won't be 3rd party by definition anymore.
I guess I just don't understand how to square that position with:
I just wish people would do that without justifying it.
I mean voting 3rd part or no-voting. If you want to do that, it is your right. The outcome of doing that is going against your interests. So, you don't really have a political strategy argument for doing it.
I have found a few people that just didn't want to feel bad about voting 3rd party. And that is fine, you don't have feel bad. You can vote how you want. But they felt like they need to create a reason for why they are voting 3rd party or no voting. This is what I think is harming the community. Creating the reason or justifying it when there was no rationality backing it and spreading it like it is a good reason is what irks me. It's spreading misinformation.
Even people who run as a 3rd party candidate are helping by spreading ideas.
So, you don’t really have a political strategy argument for doing it.
I'm so confused by your position.
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Stop thinking that you vote "for" someone in a FPTP system. You don't. You vote against the guy you don't like.
It sucks, and I hate it, but don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. We're playing a badly-designed game with a shitty controller and we're only allowed to press a button once a year at best.
Think Twitch Plays Pokemon, but with a lot more trolls and no moderation. There will be a constant stream of people voting to do something stupid and destructive, so you spend all of your time voting against them.
Oh, and their votes count for more, so they can win even if there's fewer of them. All we can ever hope to do is try to stop them and hope they don't fuck everything up and give themselves even more power before the next time we're allowed to pick a move.
Yay America. Greatest democracy in the world right there.
That's an early-stage FPTP system. After a bunch of people with minority support start winning you end up with two options, and you vote against the one you hate least because there's not really a choice anymore.
Both Democrats and Republicans have a vested interest in keeping the system as it is. They won't change it unless citizens make them change it.
Honestly I'm kind of losing hope that it's even possible at this point.
Positive change in the American system usually comes from the bottom up. If you're interested in fixing the system, the first step is to switch your local elections to Approval Voting, probably through a referendum. There's a whole bunch of reasons, and lots of second and third steps, but that's the first one.
Whenever people come up with these solutions I'm reminded that it took Jon Stewart over a decade to get money for 9/11 first responders.
If it takes that long to do something so universally desired, it's going to take a thousand years to change our voting system.
But it's nice to dream.
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"Well, that's not a very enticing platform! Who is your opponent?"
"Donald Trump."
"You have my vote."
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The entire premise is BS because Biden has a list of accomplishments from infrastructure to debt forgiveness, progressive drug guidance, progress in gender/race equality, departments like the ftc and irs being competently run again with actual resources, to judge appointments. Hmm I wonder to who's benefit it is to ignore all that and label him "not Trump"?
Care to offer an actual list? Every time someone tries to offer an actual list it turns out to be meaningless victory laps. With the possible exception of the NLRB Cemex decision. But that's getting it's stress test right now so it's a bit early to celebrate.
Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_executive_actions_by_Joe_Biden
All of it is pretty decently documented.
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If he's the guy running against Trump and Biden, I'll vote for him. But he better tell us what his name is.
Why can't you tell us?
You're saying you'll support a fucking mysterious stranger shows how serious you are about creating a positive change.
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I’m hearing this a lot lately too. Not from the Biden campaign, mind you. Just as a straw man in memes and comments in spaces like this.
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