this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2025
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[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 hours ago

I've been thinking about these agents, and what it all means.

In Ontario, Canada, the law about police identifying themselves is really straightforward:

  1. (1) A police officer shall not deliberately conceal any of the following information that is part of their uniform or is otherwise required to be displayed:
  1. The officer’s name.
  1. The officer’s badge number.
  1. The name of the officer’s police service.

(2) While acting in the course of their duties, a police officer shall, upon request, provide their name, badge number and the name of their police service to any member of the public in a manner reasonable in the circumstances that allows the member of the public to identify the officer, unless the officer has reason to believe that doing so would undermine the safety of an individual.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/r23407

In France "Police officers must clearly display their identification number badge". In Germany "you have the right to ask for the police officer's identity card and to write down their details"

But, apparently in California the rules are a lot weaker:

Any uniformed peace officer shall wear a badge, nameplate, or other device which bears clearly on its face the identification number or name of the officer.” But, this allows for them to wear a badge or nameplate, and then wear something over top of it, or obscuring it. In addition "Neither California nor federal law explicitly mandates that officers must identify themselves." I mean, that's pretty fucked up to begin with.

I can understand that because doxxing is relatively easy, a criminal might find out a cop's home address if the officer has to give their full name on request. So, maybe in 2025 an officer giving out their full name might be a legitimate problem, especially if they have an unusual name. But, how can you expect to have a reasonable society if police don't need to provide any identification on request?

The very concept of badge numbers is about trusting cops. Badge Numbers come from Collar Numbers, used on the collars of Metropolitan Police in London. Robert Peel introduced those in the 1860s to increase accountability and gain public trust. Those original numbers were short and easy to read, just 3 numbers, and being on the collars of the uniform they were very easy to see at all times. So, even someone almost illiterate might be able to use them when filing a complaint. In the modern world, badge numbers seem like the perfect compromise between the public's right to know if someone is a legitimate cop, and to have a permanent ID for them, and the officer's right to avoid having their family put in danger by being doxxed.

It seems like there's some effort in California to make police identify themselves, the No Secret Police Act prevents cops from covering their faces, and requires that they be identifiable by their uniform. IMO it should also require that they verbally identify themselves if asked. If a cop is say, kneeling on a guy's chest, you might not be able to see their name / badge number.

As for the "Secret Police", it really seems ICE is 90% of the way there. Wikipedia defines it as:

Secret police (or political police) are police, intelligence, or security agencies that engage in covert operations against a government's political, ideological, or social opponents and dissidents... They protect the political power of a dictator or regime and often operate outside the law to repress dissidents and weaken political opposition, frequently using violence. They may enjoy legal sanction to hold and charge suspects without ever identifying their organization.

When Rumeysa Ozturk was snatched in Boston by a guy in a sweatshirt, tossed into an unmarked van and driven away, look how many elements of "Secret Police" that checked off right there:

  • Covert Operation: check. They were not wearing uniforms and didn't use a police car
  • Repress dissidents and weaken political opposition: check. She was legally here on a student visa, and had done nothing more than exercise her free speech rights, but she said something that went against what the government likes, so she was snatched.
  • Operate outside the law: check. She had not broken any laws. She was legally in the US on a student visa. The only thing she had done was say pro-Palestinian things, which falls squarely in the free speech category.
  • Legal sanction to hold and charge suspects without ever identifying their organization: half check? In this case they did pull out badges and lanyards after they grabbed her, but before they threw her in an unmarked van. For a full check they'd have to have never identified themselves at all.

The only parts of the Secret Police definition that the ICE agents haven't yet fully checked is going completely without ID of any kind, and the direct use of violence. Although there has been violence associated with their arrests, they've used excessive force, and a lot of the detention facilities seem to involve low-intensity torture, that's not quite the normal "secret police" trick of jumping out of a van and beating the shit out of somebody then driving off, or grabbing someone, hauling them off to a torture site, pulling out their fingernails, then dumping them somewhere, etc. But hey, it has only been 6 months so, who knows what's next.

If the US survives the next 3.5 years, it really seems like a nationwide policing reform is necessary, on top of everything else. They should really start with Peelian Principles that are designed to have an ethical police force so that you can have "policing by consent".

But, until then, drive them out of those jobs. They do not have the public's consent. It doesn't matter if they're "just following orders". When those orders are illegitimate, that means that they are not legitimate figures of authority, they're illegitimately using violence, and can expect just about anything including violence in return.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 17 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

The BBB kicks anyone who is single and without kids/with kids over 14 off Medicaid if they don't work at least 80 hours every month of work, absent some really obnoxious paperwork requirements that may or may not have an agency to process them by the time the rule goes into effect.

Cops and other security workers regularly just get to sit around in their trucks playing Candy Crush and racking in overtime up to the six figures.

ICE just got a $175B budget increase in order to swell its ranks with a bunch of unemployed single men who need healthcare.

I'm not saying this is a deliberate policy decision but... it's one hell of a coincidence.

[–] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 4 points 15 hours ago

Are we sure ICE agents even get healthcare? They usually look like just random dudes pulled off the street and given a balaclava and a rented van and told to round up brown people. I'll bet they don't get much more than minimum wage and no benefits.

I suspect the $175B isn't going to matter a whole lot in terms of the number of boots on the street. Most of that money is just going to be absorbed by the higher-ups.

[–] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 3 points 16 hours ago

My city closed a two block stretch of road for a day this week. Instead of a sign or cones, they had cops just park their cruisers across the lanes with their lights on and sat there all day.

Well the cops put some cones around their cruisers too, but this way about six got a full days salary, if not that overtime pay.

[–] kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world 19 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

No body has ever begrudgingly become an ICE agent either. You do not stumble into it. Every ICE agent did so because they wanted to be deport people. Remember that.

[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 21 hours ago (4 children)

It doesn't even pay that well. Like, it's fine, but a sheriff's deputy or city cop makes more; multiples in a big city.

Every single one of these fuckers needs to be hanged when the regime falls. Any government that won't back that effort is just some vichy west german bullshit.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

It doesn’t even pay that well.

$34/hr to fuck around all day pretending to do law enforcement is a pretty sweet deal. With overtime, you can get into the low six-figure salary, just crushing candy on your phone until your shift ends.

Yeah vop salaries are insane. Ice doesn't pay as well,

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[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 14 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

I think the complete anonymity of the ICE costume is by design from the top, to suppress individual reluctance to obey orders. Think of the speech Marcellus Wallace gives Butch about throwing the fight:

"Now, the night of the fight you might feel a slight sting. That’s pride, fucking with you. Fuck pride. It only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that shit, because a year from now when you’re kicking it in the Caribbean, you’re gonna say Marsellus Wallace was right.”

Pride pushes a thug's buttons when he's doing something he wouldn't do if everybody knew it was him doing it. With that uniform he can step out of himself and just be the job. If anything he does bothers them later he can always just get drunk. Right now he can think about next year when he's kicking it in an America that's Great Again! He's gonna know kneeling on that lady's back was the right thing. I really think that's the inspiration for the terrorist costume.

[–] guyoverthere123@lemmy.dbzer0.com 38 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Nobody forces anyone to be a police officer.

These thugs have all willingly chosen to do that job. They could quit any time they want.

Remember that.

[–] callouscomic@lemmy.zip 57 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

True for all cops. True for all garbage careers built solely on harassment and fucking with people.

Fuck em all.

[–] thann@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 22 hours ago

Their boss was like "youre going to breaching charge a baby because their mom talked shit about us on facebook"

and they were like "hell yeah"

[–] ipitco@lemmybefree.net 6 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

the same way nobody forces you to work at mcdonalds and shit

but sometimes you just can't take the risk to lose your job

Many are probably not in this situation though

[–] SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 8 points 17 hours ago (7 children)

Bet the Nazis working at Auschwitz only wanted to feed their families. They led the death marches not wanting to risk losing their jobs. So sad /s

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[–] SanctimoniousApe@lemmings.world 26 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (5 children)

I know I'm gonna get shit for this, but I'm someone who always tries to be fair and look at things from all sides so...

I suspect like many things in late stage capitalism, for at least some not insignificant portion of them, it's not much of a choice. I'll lay odds a good number have a hard time getting jobs that pay worth a damn. I wouldn't be surprised if many were ex-cons, for example - which is why they're encouraged to wear masks, because those in charge don't want to allow that fact to be used to "de-legitimize" what they're doing. The "choice" from the agent's perspective is quite possibly do this, or be homeless & hungry. It's more deliberate cattle-herding of the powerless by those at the top.

I'm sure the majority are probably into the job, but I suspect those that are just doing it for lack of options is not a small percentage.

[–] sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 31 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (9 children)

Nah, fuck em.

Plenty of ex cons or people in shitty situations in general do their best to get by without directly harming people, by having or gaining morals and trying to genuinely be a good person.

Taking the path of least resistance in terms of 'career options' just makes you a bully and a coward.

I am a person who has gone homeless and hungry, from being the victim of these kinds of people... I've never hurt anybody, I put up with all the bullshit and paperwork and constant harassment from every member of society that comes along with being homeless, and managed to crawl my way back to not being homeless, and doing PT, and repairing my credit after having my wallet/bank cards/id stolen.

I have infinitely negative sympathy for people who have actually done crimes and then victimize more people out of the mere fear of ending up dispossed.

Fuck, they could just go work on the farms instead, that would be a legitimate line of work, lots of job openings there!

Your logic is horrendous and allows for a society where anyone doing anything shitty for basically any reason can be pearl clutched and crocodile tear'd away by unduly sympathizing with their personal sob story.

You really think you'd feel the same if these ex con neo nazis fucks busted down your door and sent you to GITMO, CECOT, or Alligator Auschwitz, simply on account of your skin being too melinated and you having a foreign sounding last name?

Gimme a break.

You gonna sympathize with their victims? Write an opinion piece from their perspective?

You are doing apologia for the modern Gestapo, that shit didn't fly at Nuremberg, if it flies with you now, you're a fascist apologist.

These motherfuckers looked a job description that read 'You will routinely carry out crimes against humanity' and said 'Hell yeah, sign me up!"

They deserve all the sympathy of the Nazis captured by the Inglorious Basterds, tap tap tap goes the baseball bat.

EDIT: But hey, at least your user name is apt, Sanctimonious Ape.

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[–] TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.zip 28 points 1 day ago (5 children)

And Putin doesn't have a choice either or he will be killed, same with Kim Jong Un and Trump would be in prison if he wasn't a tyrant.

It's always a choice no matter how you try to paint it, stealing from supermarkets to eat is above being an ICE officer morally speaking.

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[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

I wouldn’t be surprised if many were ex-cons

proudboys, oath keepers and 2%s, of COURSE they were at J6th. so while I agree with the conclusion, I have zero fucking sympathy for their tenuous position. It's probably real hard to keep a job in the real world when you hate everyone.

[–] SanctimoniousApe@lemmings.world 2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Yep, I'm sure that's absolutely true for most of them. But it's unlikely to be all of them. If we are to be the better people, then we need to remember not to dehumanize them like they do their victims. Absolutely defend yourself (or whoever they're after if you're up for putting yourself in harm's way), but no more than necessary, or you will be no better than them.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 1 points 16 hours ago

I initially misread this as 'we shouldn't dehumanize proudboys/oath chuds etc' and was like: goddamn this mofo wants me to be jesus

upon rereading: don't assume all the ice-wads are pb/oathkeeper/derp%ers - which is still pretty fucking generous in my viewing; yeah, people just doing a job, but also, that was tried for the defense at Nuremburg - didn't fly there either.

[–] NJSpradlin@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It’s always been class warfare. The rich and powerful subjugate the poor, and hold poverty over us to ensure that we do what they want, and we hate who they want us to hate.

Us infighting doesn’t stop the ultra-wealthy from continuing to win, it enables them to. The only way to win is to band together as a people regardless of our race, status, or job, against them.

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[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 5 points 23 hours ago (5 children)
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[–] Kyrgizion@lemmy.world 25 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Likewise, "just following orders" didn't fly at Nuremberg, it should fly anywhere.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 3 points 17 hours ago

war criminals should be allowed to fly a few feet until the rope stops progress.

[–] kbobabob@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 1 day ago

-not

I think you dropped this

[–] Evil_Shrubbery@lemmy.zip 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

Well, yes, but this is a necessity.

You can't (yet) run such a system otherwise, it would take way too much funding & time/indoctrination to get unwilling-ish people to do this shit.

Currently ICE HR uses the base mass unemphatic culture with strong branding (+propaganda) & sense of belonging. Which are cheap to exploit/already there.

But even the most sadistic such agents have a limit, more of a hardwired shellshock type of thing that builds up (the more extreme example is how Nazis just had to stop mass executing villages bcs even soldiers that really wanted to do it had like a gore limit that built up to the point of them being unable to physically work).
With ICE agents not seeing the full horror first hand (and just willing to not imagine the consequences) this limit is far off I imagine, unfortunately.

I'm not advocating violence, this is just as a system explanation/mechanic, but ICE agents morale (and thus the effort) is def very vulnerable to any violence at this point. That is the reason why they are getting only the tamest job assignments (=human targets), suspiciously so. It's not like it wouldn't help the propaganda machine if they busted violent gangs (they have all the equipment & overwhelming numbers, just not the people capable of not falling apart with such actions).

[–] 5too@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

Yeah, it sounds like the "escort an immigrant" drives have been pretty effective so far - it sounds like they're pretty conflict avoidant when they don't have overwhelming force. So far, at least.

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[–] themaninblack@lemmy.world 4 points 22 hours ago (2 children)

Same for CBP and TSA. There are other jobs. You don’t need to actively fight the 4th amendment.

[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

Their names faces and home addresses of them and their close networks need to be published when this is over.

If we had killed every member of the nazi party, or even a majority of the SS after world war 2, this would not be happening.

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[–] Kiernian@lemmy.world 3 points 20 hours ago

I respectfully disagree on the TSA, anecdotally.

I know a few people who applied there simply because it WAS a job in their area that paid more than minimum wage and, at least until recently, by virtue of being a government job, it was more likely to actually care about federal protections for employees with disabilities than, say, retail work, which only gives the minimum required number of fucks, and only then when someone is watching or has a lawyer handy.

Also, a significantly larger amount of the population has unfortunately accepted the questionable stipulations of the patriot act than have decided due process is simply too much work, so I feel that's a distance of an order or three of legal magnitude, comparison-wise.

I'm not saying everyone who works for the TSA is there due to lack of other options, but given it's ubiquity and level of employee turnover in airport towns, at least SOME them are.

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