this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2025
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I think part of the problem is that 5e is so pervasive and baked into the "people who play TTRPGs" population that you need to sell them on why 5e isn't good before you can get them to consider why your alternative is good.
Frankly, I'm a White Wolf die-hard. I love Exalted. I love Werewolf. I love Mage. I tolerate Vampire. But as soon as I show someone a set of d10s and try to talk them out of the idea of "Leveling" they get scared and run back to the system they're familiar with. I also have a special place in my heart for Rollmaster/Hackmaster/Palladium and the endless reams of % charts for every conceivable thing. And then there's Mechwarrior... who doesn't love DMing a game where each model on the board has to track it's heat exhaust per round? But by god! The setting is so fucking cool! (Yes, I know about Lancer).
I will freely admit that these systems aren't necessarily "better" than 5e (or the d20 super-system generally speaking). But they all have their own charms. The trick is that selling some fresh new face on that glorious story climax in which three different Traditions of Magi harmonize their foci and thereby metaphorically harmonize fundamental concepts of society is hard to do on its face. By contrast, complaining about the generic grind of a dice-rolling dungeon crawl is pretty straightforward and easy.
If you lead with "Thing you like is actually bad", their immediate response will be to disagree with you and start defending the thing they like. And if you want someone to listen to your arguments, rather than just try to poke holes in them, you must avoid putting them on the defensive.
To get through to people, find common ground and build off that. "If you like FEATURE in GAME, you'll probably love SIMILAR FEATURE in OTHER GAME because..." is something that's actually going to get someone interested, rather than start a pointless argument :)
Why would you assume the critiques are of things they like? 5e has plenty of widely recognized flaws.
Often, simply catering to people's priors means never leaving their comfort zone.
Sute, but the thing they like is "D&D", and D&D isn't just a game anymore, it's an identity signifier. Pointing people to other games before establishing yourself as firmly not attacking their identity is going to trigger a fight.
Which is part of the problem. Like talking to someone who only drinks Coca-Cola about trying a new bag of tea you brought over.
If you've wedded yourself so deeply to the brand that you feel attacked whenever someone levels a critique, you're probably not mature enough to be at my table.
Ok, but these discussions aren't happening at you're table. "Well, fuck them then" isn't exactly helpful.
Isn't what I said. But if that's what you've heard, you're illustrating my point.
I still think about the time in college I tried to get a D&D friend to consider Mage. I was telling him about how you can just do magic, and the real limitation is paradox and hubris. Like, it's often not about 'can you?' but rather "should you?"
He couldn't get over "you can just cast whatever you want? Fireballs every turn?"
"Yes, but that's probably going to make a lot of paradox, and probably isn't the best way to solve your problem"
"Sounds broken," he said, and lost interest.
The main problem with magic in Mage is that you need a LOT of rule knowledge to even know what the fuck you can cast, especially if you mix different spheres. Your friend might've dodged a bullet, but for the wrong reason 😆
I think Mage: The Awakening 2nd edition was a cleaner version of the game, but yeah no version is something you can just phone in.
I ran a game of it a year or so back, and one player just refused to read the book in any detail. She was always frustrated by not knowing what she could do, or how to do it effectively.
👅 Thank goodness for D&D, a game where character optimization and mechanical balance has never been an issue.
The thing about Mage is that you probably can engineer a way to fling fireballs every round if you're reasonably clever. It's a modern setting, hand grenades and incendiary bombs and flame throwers exist, and shoving a rag (covered in arcana) into a beer bottle would probably be enough to cause any witnesses to accept what they were seeing at face value.
But the game isn't D&D. Who do you think you're throwing that fireball at? As often as not, the primary antagonists are The Cops, the Corporate Executives, the Pharmaceutical Industry, and Silicon Valley. You can't beat a Pentex sponsored Facebook smear campaign or an FBI/Palantir partnered surveillance state by spamming it with Fire damage.
sigh
Easy enough to hash out between folks who have seriously played the game. Much harder to explain this to someone who only ever knows how to roll for initiative.