367
When lunatics start talking about expelling all Israelis 'Back to Europe' instead of integrating them in a one-state solution
(lemmy.world)
this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2025
367 points (85.2% liked)
Political Memes
8799 readers
2532 users here now
Welcome to politcal memes!
These are our rules:
Be civil
Jokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community. Sexism, racism and bigotry are not allowed. Good faith argumentation only. No posts discouraging people to vote or shaming people for voting.
No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.
Posts should be memes
Random pictures do not qualify as memes. Relevance to politics is required.
No bots, spam or self-promotion
Follow instance rules, ask for your bot to be allowed on this community.
No AI generated content.
Content posted must not be created by AI with the intent to mimic the style of existing images
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Idk, any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn't born there) is a first generation colonizer, surely it's not anti-semetic to call for that specific subgroup's relocation, no?
Over 70% of Israelis were born in Israel.
Many of the remainder were young at the age of immigration, as most immigrants to Israel were historically not single working folk, but already-established families.
Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
A large proportion of those remaining are from countries which are either legitimately deeply antisemitic or no longer exist (such as emigrants from the Soviet Union).
Would you advocate that policy of "Go back where you came from!" for the immigrants of any other country on earth?
Saying that Israelis can be expelled 'back to Europe' is not only ethnic cleansing, but utterly insane and racist besides.
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi from the Middle East.
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return? This is just Imperialism and Apartheid with extra steps.
Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.
... how much 'compensation' do you think modern Germany is paying out to the descendants of Holocaust survivors, again?
Yes, they should.
Can't wait til you find out that your own land was once owned by another nation. Can't wait til we dissolve Germany, strip all the land from the so-called 'Germans' which inhabit it, and send 'foreign' Germans back to the land they came from, those filthy immigrants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_Conference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Restitution_Laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedergutmachung
To give a ballpark, lets assume 1975 as the baseline for the inflation.
Using this calculator this is equivalent to about 172 billion Euros in todays value.
Note that this sum does not included the houses and land, that was returned to its rightful Jewish owners or their inheritors.
As for "my own land". I don't own any land and i have been paying rent ever since i left my parents house. If any of the landlords i paid to has stolen this land, they absolutely should pay the rightful owners.
I ask about modern Germany paying out to descendants of Holocaust survivors, which was the claim you made, specifically, in attempting to attack Israelis born in Israel as 'not real', and you point me to Germany paying out money to literal Holocaust survivors. Fantastic. Definitely not bullshitting to justify deeply antisemitic ideas. Perhaps you and Elon Musk would get along well.
What makes you think you have a right to benefit from renting stolen land? What makes you think that you should be allowed to reside on stolen land, colonizer? You should be shipped back to the country of your ancestors, by your own argument.
The restitution of stolen property also goes to the descendants.
Literally the first two sentences of the linked Wikipedia article.
I find it shocking how you are wildly attacking people for pointing out facts that contradict your position.
I apologize for actually reading the article. Do you know what an 'heir' is, or do you think it's just any descendant?
And I find it shocking that you're repeating antisemitic lines about deporting Jews to the land of their ancestors straight out of the Nazi playbook, but here we fucking are.
Again, what makes you think you have a right to benefit from renting stolen land? What makes you think that you should be allowed to reside on stolen land, colonizer? You should be shipped back to the country of your ancestors, by your own argument.
This is the innate issue with creating an ethno-state, it makes it difficult to delineate grievances between ethnicity and state. I don't know what the solution is, but I find it understandable that some people would agree with expulsion.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
I don't think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
... yes.
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
"It's not racism if they were racist first."
Great. Fucking fantastic. Glad we've learned absolutely nothing.
Fucking insanity.
So there's no retribution against Israel that's not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now.... Just because the immigrants aren't the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn't mean that it isn't the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
My dude.... My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it's not racism, it's criticizing a government built on racism.
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn't have invaded Poland, Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded? You aren't really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
Holy fucking shit, how is it that you are incapable of conceiving any way of punishing a government that isn't "Ethnic cleansing" or "Genocide via murder"?!
Oh, of course, that completely explains why Israelis have to be ethnically cleansed, thank you for informing me on the moral and practical necessity of genocide when it's against Bad Ethnicity.
"People are just being critical of an ethnostate when they advocate for ethnic cleansing and genocide!"
What the ever-loving fuck. You're sitting here, not just 'criticizing' the horrific policies of the Israeli state, but outright advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel of Israeli Jews, and you have the gall to claim it's "not racism, it's criticizing a government built on racism"?
Nice try, but that's not what you're saying here. If I may quote you in this very same fucking comment after it was pointed out that expelling people based on their ethnicity is actually kind of fucking horrific:
You do realize that the entire ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2 is a massive atrocity that occurred and a subject of intense study by historians and sociologists, right?
No, no, what am I saying? Ethnic cleansing is a good and wholesome response for the crimes of a country. That's why Nazi Germany was justified in ethnically cleansing Alsace-Lorraine! Oh, fuck, wait, no, that's bad. That's why Israel was justified in ethnically cleansing Palestinians! No, wait, that's bad too. Oh, wait, I have it! That's why Palestine would be justified in ethnically cleansing Israel! There! GOOD ethnic cleansing to go against all that BAD ethnic cleansing!
"Israel is committing genocide, therefore, it's okay to genocide Israelis!"
Fucking lunacy.
Funny that your definition of ethnic cleansing is dependent on who's doing it. Removing an occupying force....ethnic cleansing. Israel occupying Gaza...not an ethnic cleansing. Interesting.
"People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no."
Is what I responded too......your hysterics are not an argument.
Lol, who is calling for a genocide of Israelis? Your definition of ethnic cleansing is also not on solid ground. Deporting the colonizing forces of a hostile state who is actively doing a genocide isn't exactly an "ethnic cleansing ".
Again.....with the hyperbole. Plus I never even advocated the removal of Jews from Israel. I said I can understand why Palestinians would want that.
Again..... You are conflating nationality with ethnicity....which is why ethno-states are wrong. Russians didn't kill Germans because of their ethnicity, they killed Germans because the German nation did so many war crimes during their invasion.
You're conflating ethnic cleansing with genocide..... And you are utilizing a very dubious definition of ethnic cleansing to begin with.
Oh yeah.....because Palestinians wanting Israelis to immigrate back to Europe is the same as a genocide.
Again, I don't really think you are acknowledging the fact that an apartheid ethno-state is genociding a people who used to own the land that ethno-state is founded upon.
Is really that hard to understand why a Palestinian would want Israelis to go away?
By the way, labeling decolonization as genocide is an age old tactic of those who benefit from colonialism
I literally call Israel's actions genocide several times in this very thread.
Do you need a remedial literacy class or something?
Jesus fucking Christ. Thank you for demonstrating my point, Mirror Hasbara.
"People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no."
So a state is paying people to immigrate, and that state is also paying for the colonization of a neighboring state and forcibly moving the ethnic population....but since it's not the same people it's not ethnic cleansing?
Lol, you don't have a fucking point other than conflating decolonization with genocide.
The discussion was about the question of expelling Israeli immigrants for the crime of being immigrants, so no, those immigrants were not engaging in ethnic cleansing. Is it a lack of literacy, or a lack of intellectual integrity that causes you to conflate me saying "every Israeli immigrant isn't engaging in ethnic cleansing and thus cannot be collectively punished with ethnic cleansing" with "The government of Israel is not committing ethnic cleansing"?
Both, maybe?
Please, tell me more about how ethnic cleansing isn't genocide if it's done to Bad Ethnicity(tm).
The question wasn't about the individuals.....it was about the state, as it has been the whole time. And you have the gall to talk about literacy and a especially integrity considering your entire argument is based on malicious interpretation.
^Please, tell me more about how ethnic cleansing isn't genocide if it's done to Bad Ethnicity(tm).
Already sent you an article about the delineation between decolonization and ethnic cleansing...... And how that claim is often used by people who support apartheid and colonialism.
That is the comment which started the conversation and which I replied to, it is literally about individuals
Fucking Duning-Kruger in the flesh. Your own inabilities rob you of the ability to recognize your own inability.
Go ahead. Say that's secretly about the state. Or maybe you can say "The state and individuals are one and the same, so it's okay to commit genocide" a third time, because like the Zionists, genocide is apparently the only thing that gets you off.
Yes, yes, the sacred words of your religion absolve you for doing the exact same thing as the Zionists.
"Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?"
This is the question you responded to ......Why can't you argue in any sort of good faith? Is it against your principles or something?
Religion? Are you mentally well? I thought you were just being an asshole with the ad hominems and your general beligerence, but im beginning to think you might be bipolar or something.
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of "go back where you came from" to Nazi immigrants? Because setting aside the ethnic side, there's no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren't hopelessly Zionist.
No, but I would 100% support a policy of "Anyone who the Hague or Israel (ha, my enemy's enemy) suspects of crimes of any sort gets a free ticket and a trial anytime either of them want to make a check of things."
Once people have established roots in a place, uprooting them should only be done by proper channels or in the most extreme of circumstances. Germans in Argentina, whatever their ideological background, are not a serious threat to the polity; the polity must deal with them as it would deal with any foreign immigrants, not suddenly decide that "Bad Ethnicity" must be deported.
Much more concerning would have been the dual issues of the Argentinian government letting them in in the first place, and, for that matter, specifically assisting Nazi war criminals in obscuring their identity and escaping justice.
Zionist in which sense? Zionist in the sense of supporting Israel's existence, almost certainly - Zionist in the sense of supporting the insane Greater Israel-style politics of modern colonization of Palestine and genocide, less certainly. Israeli immigrants are generally less sanguine about Palestinian genocide than native-born Israelis.
That... is fair enough.
Also you're a racist for constantly conflating "Israeli" and "Jewish person" throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Lord.
You literally have been doing that lmfao
Reminder that I asked a question to clarify whether or not my position, which is not the same as the position your meme is criticizing. So I don't really see why you think it's necessary to attribute that position to me.
I'll repeat what I said specifically so you can clarify whether or not MY specific, NUANCED position is also problematic.
So, based on the new evidence, I'll even adjust what I'm saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
Clarifying that most Israelis are native-born is absolutely relevant when discussing expulsion of non-native Israelis. People often cloak their ethnic cleansing shitheadery by implying that most Israelis are immigrants, without acknowledging that the reverse is the truth.
So when Ukraine takes back Crimea and the Donbass, you're in support of ethnically cleansing anyone who wasn't born there?
For a more extreme example, would you take this position for the US? There's still an ongoing situation of unequal treatment of the Native population on reservations; surely you wouldn't allow filthy colonizers to remain just because they were immigrants?
No more than it would be fair to expel immigrants of any other nation based on ethnic origin. At most, I would regard extremely recent immigrants (~5 years, maybe) as negotiable in practical terms, if distasteful and a violation of the treatment of human beings equally, rather than trying to apply some insane notion of ethnic correctness to the 'crime' of existing.
What would you call people who are invited in by the native-born population of a country which also run its legitimate government? Immigrants, or colonizers?
Okay, that's great, I already clarified my position beyond that, so I will repeat that in this conversation it is irrelevant! We can keep talking in circles about its relevance to the conversation if you like, but it seems pointless, since again, it is irrelevant to the conversation (beyond you making a point to observers I guess!)
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race? Because if so... then yes? Like are there native citizens being displaced by the government because people of a specific ethnicity want to move there? Educate me pls
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You're not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
The crime isn't existing, it's actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them? It's also NOT ethnic cleansing. The rhetoric you're using to accuse me of being pro-"ethnic cleansing" is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I'm not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, "ethnic cleansing" stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
Is the government actively colonizing? There's your answer.
Yes, the Russian government has made extensive efforts to displace Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in the occupied territories in favor of Russian residents.
So you're in favor of deporting all immigrants in America? That seems non-intuitive.
I'm sorry, are we deporting Palestinian immigrants as well? Yes, based on ethnic origin. Have you not thought out your own position?
Which most immigrants to Israel aren't doing, as Israel's internationally recognized territory is overwhelmingly populated by Jewish Israelis and wherein Palestinian natives haven't lived, largely, for generations.
Forcibly deporting people from a region for their ethnicity is literally fucking ethnic cleansing. Just because you think it's 'good' ethnic cleansing, being in response to 'bad' ethnic cleansing, doesn't make it not fucking ethnic cleansing.
"Oh, it's only a SUBGROUP I want to ethnically cleanse! The GOOD ONES can stay!"
Christ. I guess Israel didn't engage in ethnic cleansing either, since it let some 'good Arabs' stay.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don't understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I'm not a tankie lol
I'm in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes? The ONLY reason ethnicity comes into it (for the sake of my argument anyway, I understand there are nazis out there that are using this to dogwhistle) is because the state is basing it on ethnicity. If they were actively bringing in Palestinians to displace Palestinians, then yes, we would be relocating those immigrants as well. Of course, that's not happening, and it makes no sense to even say it.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn't true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I'M NOT REFERRING TO?
Yeah, man, that would be ethnic cleansing. Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Oh... you're taking problem with that. Because it's ethnic cleansing to relocate a subgroup of people, that might happen to be of the same ethnicity, based on their specific actions. For sure, man.
To compare the relocation of colonizers to the active, systemic displacement, removal, and eradication of a group of people based on their ethnicity?
You are a bad joke.
... because people are generally in agreement that mass expulsions of civilians based on ethnicity is difficult to justify morally and nearly impossible to execute humanely?
I'm sorry, you're making the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants to Israel are displacing people from their homes. What's the difference here, exactly?
You specified that the people you were counting as colonizers were recent, adult immigrants to Israel from Europe.
The people it's colonizing Palestine with are largely native-born Israelis, not immigrants to Israel.
Why are you advocating for deporting immigrants to Israel, from Israel, for the crime of other Israelis settling on Palestinian land?
Alright, let me quote you:
But it's not based on ethnicity, is it? It's based on their status as a colonizer.
You're right, I did make that sweeping generalization. Good thing I walked it back when presented with evidence and clarified a more specific position. Almost like I'm open to learning when I'm not being condescended to by some keyboard warrior.
Okay, so based on what you're telling me now, I'll update my opinion again. Wow, I wish you could have presented this information from the beginning instead of being a jerk that nitpicked points to argue with (and did a poor job of it btw).
So is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of Israeli colonizers living in Palestine to return to Israel? I think maybe we're finally getting to somewhere where we can agree 😎
What's the point of that quote? Is it because I reference birthright and therefore the people I'm referring to are ethnically Jewish? And therefore I am calling for the relocation of people based on their ethnicity? Or am I clearly calling for the relocation of colonizers, of which I had misunderstandings of where those colonizers are coming from? Hm 🤔
But as mentioned, as your argument is based around deporting immigrants to Israel back to Europe on account of them being European immigrants to Israel, it absolutely is based on ethnicity.
When did you walk that position back? You simply kept speaking of immigrants as 'colonizers' without walking back any statements before that quoted one.
I'm sorry that I addressed your argument as your presented it, instead of using my prophetic powers to see into the future where you'd change your argument, and addressing that instead?
More fair, I would say, but more realistically I would point to the only real solution as the total cessation of Israeli government control over illegal settlements to Palestinian authorities. The ball is then in the court of the Palestinians of how they want to treat the settlements - most likely, the simple non-recognition of the legitimacy of the property ownership (and eviction if they refused to vacate property they did not legally own) would be enough to send most of them packing back to Israel. For those who stayed anyway, attempting to rent and work in the region despite the apartheid settlement being dismantled, I would argue that deportation becomes a much more fraught subject, though considering the lack of legal recognition of their entry into Palestinian territory and the likely knowledge of the unlawful nature of the settlements, less severe than ethnic cleansing usually is.
Bruh, you spent most of this comment chain defending the expulsion of 'colonizers' on this ground without reference to illegal settlements, and, within the context of the first few comments, quite clearly in regard to Israel as a whole, not just specific illegal settlements.
HOLY FUCK ARE YOU SERIOUS? IT'S BEEN ESTABLISHED SINCE MY SECOND COMMENT (REALLY MY FIRST COMMENT IF YOU WEREN'T BEING BONEHEADED) THAT MY POSITION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE POSITION IN THE MEME.
🙄 oh okay so we are just lying now okay. Right, I NEVER walked back my sweeping generalization and I NEVER specified further. For sure!
Right, it doesn't take the power of foresight to recognize that someone saying "idk", followed by a statement of position followed by a ", no?" is clearly a person asking for someone to explain what is wrong with their position. It ALSO doesn't take the power of foresight to recognize that in my next comment, my argument was updated, and that I was clearly open to new information as it was presented. Maybe you should get a grip on your ability to perceive things that are plainly in front of you.
But I've also been quite transparent about my ignorance and you've just been treating me as a racist instead of recognizing how reasonable I was being when presented with information and my willingness to update my position? Like you're just arguing in bad faith under the assumption I am arguing in bad faith even though it's pretty obvious I'm not.
Israel didn't 'have' to happen at that point. Israel 'happening' has much more to do with Interwar politics, not WW2 - the vast majority of those present in Israel at the date of its creation were those who engaged in colonization projects during the British Mandate of Palestine, with Jewish survivors of WW2 largely not emigrating until after the state of Israel had been formed.
You can argue that the desire to escape European antisemitism was valid, but Zionism, as a project, was never all that wholesome in practical terms. From the start of the British Mandate after WW1, Zionist settlers were very clear that they envisioned their colonization in terms that European colonizers would have been familiar with - the suppression of the indigenous population under the presumption that they brought 'real' and racially superior civilization - even though the post-WW1 world order had become increasingly hostile to such notions even from Christian Europeans.
So you're either woefully misinformed or defending the Nakba. Which is it?
Israel is a country of refugees. They came in many waves fleeing from pogroms in the Russian Empire, persecution in Yemen, the Holocaust, the Farhud in Iraq, and so on. They didn't come to a land of opportunity to become rich like in the USA. They came looking for a safe place to live, not a persecuted minority for once, a place that would have them. Most did not have any other place to go.