this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2024
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Nato members have pledged their support for an "irreversible path" to future membership for Ukraine, as well as more aid.

While a formal timeline for it to join the military alliance was not agreed at a summit in Washington DC, the military alliance's 32 members said they had "unwavering" support for Ukraine's war effort.

Nato has also announced further integration with Ukraine's military and members have committed €40bn ($43.3bn, £33.7bn) in aid in the next year, including F-16 fighter jets and air defence support.

The bloc's Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said: "Support to Ukraine is not charity - it is in our own security interest."

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[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca -2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

It's amazing to see how down voted a contrary opinion can be in this subject.

It's a little easier to understand if you reversed the situation.

How would the US react if the Russians supported Mexico in joining a military pact against the US, so that the Russians could build military bases and install short range nuclear weapons in Mexico and point then at the US? What would the reaction be if Russian then spent billions of dollars financing the Mexicans from any kind of military aggression from the US?

You can't threaten someone with a gun and not expect them to eventually shoot you.

It doesn't matter how anyone feels about my opinion but the more we posture with violence, lies on all sides, anger and an unwillingness to step back and find sensible solutions .... the closer we get to nuclear war and the end of civilization.

[–] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 1 points 11 months ago

Cuba (country right next to the US) aligned itself with the USSR after Castro's revolution, and the US has attempted to coup them, invade them, murder their leaders, then sink them in isolation and starvation. I've always defended that Cuba had the right of self-determination for their own foreign and domestic policy, and that the US was in the wrong for retaliating against them.

It would be extremely hypocritical of me to defend that Ukraine has no right to self-determine whether they want to be in a defensive pact or not, and whether they want to join the EU or not, just because a third country would like them not to do so - just as it's extremely hypocritical of tankies and campists to say that Cuba had the right to choose their own future but Ukraine doesn't.

[–] Carmakazi@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

As an American I think that would all be reasonable...if the official US position was that Mexico has no right to exist, the Mexican people should be forcibly integrated into our society as 2nd class citizens, and the US Army was in the process of a "peacekeeping operation" in Mexico to carry all this out.

For all our flaws, we respect the borders of our neighbors and don't have irridentist aspirations that belong in the 19th century. Russia is the aggressor here, and they have demonstrated that they have little interest in global peace or human rights, only increasing their sphere of influence.

Continually rolling over for thugs because it's what avoids nuclear conflict will only lead to a global order based on thuggery, and it likely won't even avoid nuclear conflict in the end.

[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm no fan of Russia ... I'm just stating my opinion because I don't want to die in a nuclear holocaust because everyone didn't want to see reason.

There's only one country in modern history that has spread global influence and threats in every part of the world, imposed, threatened, created and caused violence everywhere for decades while imposing their financial, political and economic powers on everyone everywhere for all of modern history ....

.... and it isn't the Russians.

[–] Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website 1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Ah, There it is, the thing that you ultimately wanted to say but tried to be coy about.

"America bad"

And here I thought the topic at hand was Ukraine becoming a NATO member, not AmErIcAn ImPeRiAliSm

[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

NATO is an arm of American imperialism so it's relevant to the article and conversation at hand.

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

So if the US gets out of Nato like Trump promised, what then? It magically disolves because there are no sovereign countries in there? Or is it still an arm of american imperialism and all ze eviilz in the world?

[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee -1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

It would definitely weaken a ton although I doubt it would immediately dissolve, although its power is heavily based on our leadership and military and anyone who doesn't see that is pretty naive. Hopefully Europe would help Ukraine enough to make up for us having Trump and probably not helping them anymore, though.

[–] Freefall@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Probably not helping them? You mean against a trump US joining the Russians. The dude really wants us on the evil side of WW3.

[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee -1 points 11 months ago

He could remove aid but I doubt he could convince Congress and the American people to help Russia. Plus, his whole pro-Russia thing with respect to the war has been posed as an isolation thing. Maybe I'm wrong, though. He's not afraid to be a hypocrite. A Trump candidacy is depressing and I've been trying not to dwell on the possibility of it tbh.

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It wasn't a good question nor was it asked in good faith. I answered what I could with some context. It's like asking if we know the world would have no wars after we got rid of the Nazis and all the evil in the world would disappear. Well, no, obviously not, but that it doesn't mean it wouldn't improve things.

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It was a regular question that doesn't fit within your narrow view of "US bad everybody evil because puppets of US"

[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Okay, that's quite the straw man, but now I get your confusion, because you're making up arguments you think I'm making. I never said "everybody evil because puppets of US".

I made a single sentence criticizing NATO (because often America is bad believe it or not and they're the main superpower behind it). Everything else you're assuming or making up. People can believe other non-US countries, including Russia or China or other Western countries, can be bad, can support Ukraine in their war against Russia, and still think that NATO is an arm of US imperialism. Some people are capable of holding these multiple non-conflicting thoughts in their head at the same time. It's not whataboutism, because it's related to NATO the whole topic of this thread, it's just adding to the conversation and exploring the nuance of it all. But I forgot that NATO and the US can do no wrong and is a perfect angel at all times, so that's my fault for saying anything. Would you feel better if I said Western imperialism so it wasn't so specific to the US, though?

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

No you said "Nato is an arm of american imperialism" which literally means "everybody evil because puppets of US".

[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee -1 points 11 months ago

That's a huge simplification of what that means. But if you're going to deny the long history of NATO being an extension of American power and a way to legitimize their military conflicts around the world from Libya to Iraq, then there isn't really anywhere to go next in this conversation.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

America bad is literally the reason why countries don't want NATO on their border. You don't get to ignore that key point and pretend OP was arguing in bad faith.

America invades countries to overthrow their government steal their natural resources. Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq, even the Genocide in Gaza is made possible by NATO countries doing the weapons logistics.

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

And yet Russia has multiple borders with NATO countries. "Your opinion" is parroting kremlin propaganda about "the nuclear end" that "will totally happen you guys" and can be summarized by "let's give Russia everything they want, because they have nukes so they can now rule everyone"

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I really don't care enough about Russia to defend their actions any further but if you look on a map you see Ukraine does not just encircle Russia but actually sticks inwards quite a bit.

And Russia did start getting more imperialist the closer NATO came.

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Ah yes the closer NATO came, since before they had east Germany, Poland and other countries.

Dude. Think about what you are saying or read up more. You are repeating russian propaganda and nothing else. This is a land grab invasion. NATO doesn't have shit to do with it otherwise Russia wouldn't grab all their troops on NATO borders and move them to Ukraine. They know NATO isn't an offensive alliance and are using that, then telling people like you bullshit about NATO encroachment, novorossia or other idiotic ramblings.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I don't care enough about Russia to debate this here's some background info debunking your claims. https://youtu.be/Ml4nqkHImjo?t=59s

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Dude, you aren't some barely interested dude that "doesn't care about Russia". People have memories and can remember your posts you know. This isn't new for you spreading pro-Russia bullshit, you do it all the time and get downvoted to hell for it. Stop hiding behind "oh I don't really care, buuuuut", you aren't fooling me.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I just inform myself on global politics. Russia is not the good guy in the conflict but neither is NATO. But people here really have no idea what they are talking about. Of course literal facts that don't fit the superlib narrative are all pro Russia bullshit.

Same people that can see the gray in the Genocide in Gaza are the people that believe a territorial war between two imperialist superpowers is black and white

[–] highduc@lemmy.ml -1 points 11 months ago

Propaganda has been turned up to 11 to manufacture consent for this war, it's no wonder people are so polarized about it.