"This is not an educational system problem, this is a societal problem. What am I supposed to do? Keep standards high and fail them all?" : stuffandsuch

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Interesting read. The author says its not a rant but it reads as a rant. However it also has a fairly clear and concerning message: attention spans of current students are dire and its down to smart phones.

Some elemenrs of the piece are off though. Laptops in class are essential -its a far better way to take notes than handwriting for many people. But you also have to treat students like adults and trust them - if they want to sit in a class and gamble then thats their problem. While there is some overlap with the phone issue it is different.

There is nothing much the author can do about the main issue than sound the alarm. Social media is designed to give people dopamine hits and be addictive, and were seeing the effects of that addiction permeate through society.

The response to anyone reading that article is to get off their phones. Lock it away when youre in the gym, lock it away when in school or work, leave it in another room when its time to go to bed. Break the addiction.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

He sounds boring AF. Maybe attention spans are down. I don't know. I know I spent most of school daydreaming because some idiot droning through a bunch of slides is the worst way to teach and learn.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

One thing I noticed as a student and then a brief stint as as TA for a few years is that the whole slide deck thing would be waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy less boring if students did any amount of or effort.

Teachers always asked questions. Always tried to stoke conversations. Debate.

Students didn't answer. It was silence. They didn't do the pre-read. They didn't do any of the voluntary work. They showed up and expected to have knowledge transmitted into their brain in a way they get it.

It doesn't work like that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

If your teaching requires students to do a thing, and they're proving incapable of doing the thing, maybe pick a different thing.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago

This study says that 65% of college students reported that they skipped buying or renting a textbook because of cost. I believe they didn’t buy the books, but I’m skeptical that cost is the true reason, as opposed to just the excuse they offer. Yes, I know some texts, especially in the sciences, are expensive. However, the books I assign are low-priced.

All texts combined for one of my courses is between $35-$100 and they still don’t buy them. Why buy what you aren’t going to read anyway? Just google it.

My brother in christ, your course is not the only thing being followed. If that was the case it'd be okay. When I was studying the costs of the books of one of my classes was probably around a hundred bucks as well, but guess what. I had 7 or 8 different classes, every god damn year. Even if you lowball it at 50 bucks a class, that's still 400 bucks you have to pay every year for 4 years. I wasn't paying that shit, long live library genesis.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

All this might sound like an angry rant. I’m not sure. I’m not angry, though, not at all. I’m just sad. One thing all faculty have to learn is that the students are not us. We can’t expect them all to burn with the sacred fire we have for our disciplines, to see philosophy, psychology, math, physics, sociology or economics as the divine light of reason in a world of shadow.

I wrote a long, insulting response to that post. I think I manged to turn it down a bit. Ultimately I too, am sad.

This prof is old. Sharing slides was a novelty 25 years ago. It became normal, 15 years ago. If you still don't think you have to do it in 2025, there is nothing to do except shrug and walk away. Which people do. Taking notes on a laptop is normal. End of discussion. There is nothing "magic" about handwriting notes. They get lost, they can't be backed up, they take up space, they can't be shared, etc..

They are suggesting people buy 100$ of books for one course, unironically. They think that's cheap.

We’re told to meet the students where they are, flip the classroom, use multimedia, just be more entertaining, get better. As if rearranging the deck chairs just the right way will stop the Titanic from going down. As if it is somehow the fault of the faculty. It’s not our fault.

No, it is your fault. You have remained at the technological and societal level of 40-50 years ago. Being a professor is a position of intellectual leadership, you're supposed to go with the times, and maximize the tools at your disposal to improve your craft and the lives and yourself and your students. Not doing that, is a massive failure.

Our job is to kindle that flame, and we’re trying to get that spark to catch, but it is getting harder and harder and we don’t know what to do.

Yes. Obviously. What you should do is retire and make way.

All of that doesn't mean that the students aren't also dumber than 40-50 years ago or that smartphones aren't also bad for people.

But screw this person and their attitude.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Tldr; You completely missed the author's point, which only reinforces his point that students are illiterate and don't read. All you did is quibble with nitpicks like $100 of books not being cheap. He highlights students are intellectually stunted when they get to college and how they view college as purely transactional.

There is nothing "magic" about handwriting notes. They get lost, they can't be backed up, they take up space, they can't be shared, etc..

Factually incorrect: blog analysis with journal references. I'm not an expert in this domain, so I struggle to assess the quality of the meta analysis; however, the most conservative statement that can be made supported by the evidence is:

"There seems to be a noticeable improvement in performance associated with hand written notes but it may be partially or completely context or person dependent to see those benefits."

This is supported by the general knowledge that taking the time necessary to write the note helps reinforce the connection and memory recall.

No, it is your fault. You have remained at the technological and societal level of 40-50 years ago. Being a professor is a position of intellectual leadership...

A significant number of professors are intellectual leaders by performing research. That's their job. Students regularly do not recognize that the primary function of academic research university professors is not to educate - it's to develop new knowledge.

There is no official education training that professors go through. But good universities will have some support structures for it (and I don't have experience at teaching focused colleges). A good educator will spark curiosity, excitement, and wonder. Being a good educator is not necessary for being a good professor.

Students must take ownership for their own interests and actions. Students don't care about the material. Students will do the bare minimum to get the grade and regularly do so by cheating, copying, and denying fellow students study materials from previous quarters because it gives them an edge in classes graded on a curve.

Students will use LLMs to write essays with no editing and then argue with you about it when you fail them for cheating. Students will write everything they know about related to a test question and get mad when their shotgun approach loses them points - because summarizing a chapter in answering a specific question shows they do not comprehend the material. Students are hyper results oriented and the only purpose for college is because you were told to do it to get a job and you want a job.

It is not our job to entertain. It is our job to make new knowledge and educate to the best we can, but I'd students don't come to the table jumping around like {CURRENT_TOP_TIKTOK} to be entertaining isn't going to fix things.

The Titanic is still sinking because college isn't about becoming educated.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago

Ya all are hella out of my league on the topic, just wanted to slightly butt in as someone who failed uni.

I blamed professors for their outdated approach. Especially the long, dry lectures...oh my god these were terrible. Because I was doing them wrong. All my years at school we were taught to write down everything, which doesn't work in uni. So yeah, first fail. Best part, in high school there were two professors who valiantly fought to teach us how to take notes. Mostly failed.

Second fail is...I've gone there because everyone was pushing me to go there. I wasn't ready. Had no passion, no motivation, no target. I wondered how certain people were doing better than everyone else - only after I fixed my mental health I noticed that these people had some target. They worked towards something specific - wanted to advance in one of the fields, or were curious about topic, and thus things came easier to them. Most of us were...more like jellyfish. We were there, wherever current takes us we go, most folk had barely any or none at all idea what they want except "finish studies". God how it hurts to look at all the opportunities I not only didn't take, but didn't even notice...

Overall, primary, middle and high school are made for people to flow with the current and find out what interests them. To take them through science. But uni seems more like a freelance guide on a tour. You need to know what you wanna do or see first, guide will then help you get most out of it.

But I don't believe it's students fault for failing either. Why the hell are people funelled so hard to uni? Most folk this age don't know shit yet, are still trying things out. Were I to take two year pause between high school and uni, I may have not drifted.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

There seems to be a noticeable improvement in performance associated with hand written notes but it may be partially or completely context or person dependent to see those benefits.”

So it is scientifically proven. Except for the big exception that IT DEPENDS. So it's not actually proven.

I...

This is why I am sad.

Are you being serious, here? Do you understand the problem with the argument you made here and with how you made it?

This is supported by the general knowledge that taking the time necessary to write the note helps reinforce the connection and memory recall.

""Tldr; You completely missed the author’s point, which only reinforces his point that students are illiterate and don’t read.""

Well, do you? Read this again.

Taking notes on a laptop is normal. End of discussion.

Did I, at any point, suggest that students shouldn't take notes? Because I don't think I did. I think I said

"Taking notes on a laptop is normal."

What am I supposed to do with this whole thread? After that garbage tier argument, why would I take anything you say seriously?

Appeals to authority work, when I can see, understand and recognize that you are capable in your subject matter and worth listening to and learning from. What you demonstrate, is that you don't give shit about different perspectives, different tools, AND you don't hold yourself to the same standard of demanding attention to detail.

Students regularly do not recognize that the primary function of academic research university professors is not to educate - it’s to develop new knowledge.

It literally legally isn't in my country, in my country teaching comes first, but I recognize that this may be different depending on the country.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

I did not claim it was scientifically proven. I claimed the evidence contradicts your implication that electronic note taking is functionally equivalent to note taking. (i.e. handwriting notes aren't magic)

The findings involved 14 studies combining 3,075 participants demonstrated that using electronic notetaking methods reduced measured outcomes (average r = −.142). Using the Binomial Effect Size Display, results indicated a decline of 25% of students scoring below the mean when electronic devices when compared to using handwritten notetaking. 1

I was attempting to somewhat steelman your argument by using the nuance and complexity that often comes with research to show that there are caveats. You have an out. You could still be right. I expected someone named it_depends_man would be able to appreciate my nuanced approach. Please don't mistake my embrace of the ambiguity intrinsic to scientific research and progress (things are rarely proven outside of mathematics anyway) as logical inconsitency.

If there are, however, big logical gaps please do point those out. I genuinely would love to learn how I am wrong or ways to improve the way I reason.

Did I, at any point, suggest that students shouldn't take notes? Because I don't think I did. I think I said

No. I didn't say you said that either. I take notes electronically and physically. I understand the use cases of both. I never said don't use a laptop or electronic notes.

It literally legally isn't in my country..

Cool! Legitimately. However, the author of the article is clearly from an American University so we need to discuss from that context.

We’re also an NCAA Division 2 school...

Country context is critical because the claims he makes or issues he brings up may not be applicable to every country's student body.

Please don't be sad. I assure you I'm not stupid and my critical thinking is above average - if only just barely. I'm not appealing to my authority. I'm appealing to the authority of scientific literature. Where I freely admit I'm not equipped to robustly get into a debate about the scientific rigor of an individual study.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago

I’m not appealing to my authority. I’m appealing to the authority of scientific literature

Yes. I know. That's my point. This is what that looks like:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1041794X.2020.1764613

That source you linked isn't publicly accessible. You are supporting your perspective and this particular point, with a source I can't even read. That is the authority I'm supposed to respect? We're not even getting into the validity of the actual point!

A system that behaves this way, can't be interacted with. And not because I don't want to and not necessarily because I'm incapable of doing it (illiterate, don't read), we won't find that out in this case.

And then there is this professor who keeps wondering what's wrong and "no of course he's not sharing his slides".

Stuff and Such