this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2026
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[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 90 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The only thing you do by keeping things running through heroic effort is to send a message to management that they can lower the priority of dealing with the issue.

Managing upwards (getting management to make decisions in your favor) means that you can't let yourself be the reason they don't feel the pain of a problem like poor staffing. Sure, you can step in and save the day if you really, truly, need to build up your reputation as dependable/hero, but it's a thin thin line.

One thing I often do as well is try to look at people in other departments and their general attitudes towards time off, vacations, having to leave for Dr's appointments, that sort of thing.

I'll be damned if I'm going to live in a constant crunch time situation, feeling like I need to take lunch at my desk, and put off things I need to do for me.

Especially while other teams are having regular team building outings during work hours on the company dime, one guy takes a long lunch and to go to the gym, and two others were clearly taking the video call meeting while out walking their dog.

Everyone deserves consideration of the fact that they are human, and everyone deserves the kind of flexibility that often is only for business side "important" people.

[–] grinning_serpent@lemmy.world 13 points 5 days ago

Overtime solves this issue pretty effortlessly. They call you and offer a shift of overtime to cover someone that's unexpectedly absent. If you're willing to sacrifice your normal time off, you get time and a half in exchange. If you're not, then either another person will or the manager/foreman on salary handles it. That is, after all, one of the reasons they're paid more (and on salary.)

[–] ByteMe@lemmy.world 63 points 6 days ago (5 children)

In my opinion, at a healthy workplace, someone taking time off shouldn't be noticed

[–] terranoid@lemmy.cafe 39 points 6 days ago (1 children)

In a "healthy" capitalist environment, they take note of who can leave without any bumps in the road and lay them off

I used to have this boss who would get mad if anyone asked for 2 weeks off. She would say, "if you think the business can survive without you for that long, why do we pay you? Don't bother coming back then"

[–] Bahnd@lemmy.world 28 points 5 days ago (1 children)

That boss was a short-sighted moron. (I assume we all can see that). I hope that role is as high up the food chain as the Peter Principal will allow them to go.

1). Hiring is expensive, scouting, ads, interviews, and paying HR do process their onboarding and benifits. The rule of thumb Ive see previous managers use is the total cost to hire someone is 2-2.5 times their annual take-home. Not to mention the effectivness of a new hire learning the role costs the company real resources, time and effort to bring up to speed.

2). Your PTO is part of your compensation, and can be used within policy as you see fit. Failure to allow its appropriate use could be viewed as wage theft and there are very powerful leagl avenues (depending on location) to take if the case is big enough to bring against the employeer.

[–] grinning_serpent@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

Within policy does a lot of heavy lifting.

It's generally very simple (by intent) for the employer to deny PTO requests "within policy."

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[–] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 48 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I once listened to a presentation by a guy who had this really elaborate plan, based on everyone doing their jobs absolutely perfectly, with nothing going wrong at all. If anything skipped a beat, anywhere along the way, the entire house of cards would come down.

I asked what would happen if someone didn't accomplish their objectives, and he said they would. But what if they didn't? They will. That's when I said, you aren't taking the human factor into account, and he said that the solution is to "fire the human, and get a new human."

[–] BabyVi@lemmy.world 35 points 5 days ago

Meanwhile, "Nobody wants t' werk!!!".

[–] grinning_serpent@lemmy.world 24 points 5 days ago (4 children)

Okay, cool. What happens while you're training that new human? Trainees will operate at substantially less efficiency than expected while learning and may for a while afterwards too, depending on complexity of the work. What happens if one of those humans gets hurt or sick?

Dude really was a moron, wasn't he?

[–] jtrek@startrek.website 14 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Dude really was a moron, wasn’t he?

A leading hypothesis is management are fucking stupid. Throw them back into the trenches. Let them do some actual work for a few years

[–] grinning_serpent@lemmy.world 6 points 5 days ago

It's easy to tell which managers were promoted from within and which were external hires with no hands on experience.

I don't think hands on experience is necessary, but you need to have a comprehensive understanding of the work being done by people you oversee. That becomes increasingly difficult as your position moves you from the front line, which I think is one reason upper management and executives often seem like aliens compared to the rank and file and lower management.

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What happens while you’re training that new human?

My managers always had a simple solution to this problem: pretend that new programmers fresh out of college require no on-the-job training at all. Or for bonus points, pretend that they're even better than the guys who have been doing this for decades and pay them more.

[–] Napster153@lemmy.world 9 points 5 days ago

He's not the only one. The Neo-Feudalists really think they are the only human species that exists whilst everyone else is a Neanderthal Serf

[–] bridgeburner@lemmy.world 4 points 5 days ago

Nah, new humans aren't trained in this day and age anymore. Managers just say to use AI instead. We can see this with the high unemployment rate of graduates.

[–] Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world 40 points 5 days ago (3 children)

I would like to add - fuck those managers that try to make scheduling issues around your sick days your problem. Over the last few years, I’ve heard of more and more jobs where the manager expects you, the sick person, to find coverage for your shift in order to call out. That is, you’re expected to call around your coworkers and find someone who will work your shift for you… yes, even if you’ve got no voice or are busy puking your brains out. Somehow, this practice has become prevalent in some jobs in the US. I worry about the younger workers who accept this as normal. It is not normal, and should never be normal!

The manager is paid to manage the employees - including finding coverage when someone’s sick. If you ever find yourself in a job where a manager tries to make you find your replacement before “permitting” you to call out, GTFO out of there! It’s a fucked up practice and sane employers don’t pull that shit.

(For all the Europeans reading - yes, this is real. Yes, we need better labor laws.)

[–] testaccount372920@piefed.zip 15 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Labor conditions in the USA are so fucked up. Join a union, you need collective action to make changes.

[–] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 11 points 5 days ago (4 children)

I'm a school bus driver in the US (Teamsters union). Our monthly dues are about $90 and we're finding it difficult to get new drivers to join because of that. Our district is surrounded by non-unionized districts where they make about $8 less an hour and get none of the benefits we get, which include subsidized health insurance and a pension after ten years. We're OK for now but if our union membership ever drops below 50% of the drivers our contract will be voided and then we'll find out how shitty it is to not be represented by a union. But I can't get the new drivers to understand this; the anti-union propaganda for the last fifty years hear (really, for a lot longer than that) has just been too overwhelming.

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[–] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

gtfo and maybe start a couple fires on your way to the door

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 8 points 5 days ago

Guillotines, even for the low level tyrants.

Caskets with flesh-eating worms for them!

[–] thericofactor@sh.itjust.works 26 points 5 days ago (2 children)

In Europe, there are companies that offer unlimited paid time off. In practice apparently people take less time off than when they have a fixed amount of leave because they feel a responsibility towards their coworkers.

In my opinion, entrepreneurship is a high risk/high rewards game. Employees getting sick is part of the risk, and if you can't handle that you shouldn't be running a business.

I know in the US it's incredibly easy to let people go, in the end if specialist workers get scarce, not accepting sick days will ruin your business. In Europe not accepting sick days is simply not an option.

I am convinced treating people well prevents things like burnout. And preventing burnouts and churn gives you a competitive advantage.

I'm a school bus driver in the US. Not only do we not get unlimited PTO, even for our paid holidays we don't get paid for them unless we show up for the workdays before and after the paid holidays. This is so that we don't attempt to stretch the long weekend that a Friday or Monday holiday provides by taking extra sick days before or after. I was a programmer most of my working life and I never encountered any time-off like this, but the other drivers say this is common in "blue-collar" jobs.

TBF our bosses have absolutely no flexibility in terms of the work that has to be done. A bus route needs to be covered or else 100 kids don't make it to school. We have standby drivers but not an unlimited number of them. The day after the Philadelphia Eagles won the Super Bowl, about a third of our drivers called in "sick" and the transportation director had no choice but to cancel multiple routes. I was more pissed at our drivers than she was -- we're almost all in our 60s and 70s (and a few are in their 80s) and have no business drinking ourselves into massive hangovers. I'm actually surprised nobody died.

[–] Malyca@lemmy.zip 3 points 5 days ago

Nvidia offers that here, unlimited time off and a focus on work/life balance. They don't do layoffs. Seems to be working out well for them, given they're the most valuable company right now.

[–] carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone 26 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

also, by going to work sick, you are unnecessarily endangering your coworkers, your customers, and yourself.

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 20 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It's true and i agree but it's still my coworker suffering the consequences.

[–] justlemmyin@lemmy.world 7 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Meh, they should take days off too then, don't be an apologist. Pitting against fellow workers is not the way.

[–] grinning_serpent@lemmy.world 9 points 5 days ago

You need to stop thinking in twitter posts and start thinking in terms of reality.

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 9 points 5 days ago

TIL feeling bad for my coworkers makes me an apologist

[–] aardvark_spool46@piefed.world 7 points 5 days ago

Too few people accept this

[–] HertzDentalBar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I guilt myself enough as it is. My boss tells me don't worry about it and that I need rest like everyone else lol. I'm lucky, I both have my dream job and a boss that actually goes to bat for me. I wish everyone could have the same.

Shit, If a client is even just a little rude to me my boss will basically threaten to pull their account and force them to apologize.

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[–] Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca 13 points 5 days ago (4 children)

What do you mean you "deserve" sick days? Aren't you legally given those?

For instance, I can call in two days a month and say "I'm sick, staying home, not working". If I'm not that badly off, then I can call in as much as I want (within reason) and say "I'm sick but working from home". At any point, I can say "I'm sick, going to hospital".

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 9 points 5 days ago

No. We are not given those.

The people who we trust to secure those rights for us that you take for granted are useless unless they're blocking progress.

[–] grinning_serpent@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

Few American employers provide actual sick days. Instead you can pull from your pool of paid time off (which doubles as vacation for many jobs, although some do have a separate vacation pool that can only be used for scheduled time off) or just have an unpaid absence.

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[–] LaunchesKayaks@lemmy.world 8 points 5 days ago

Called off work on Friday because I accidentally fucked up my back Thursday night and woke up unable to move without excruciating pain. My boss left me on read. Didn't even fucking reply.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 6 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

The only two people who I am putting any stress on by calling out sick the morning of a shift is the scheduling manager who has to find someone to cover, and the person they get to cover if they happened to be off that day and now are being asked to come in. And I could always cover that other person's shift when they call in sick to make up for when they covered for me.

Any extra slack the already scheduled people get told to pick up is on the manager if they do not find anyone else to come in, and that is entirely on those in charge of staffing the place.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

By the way, this also applies for "unforeseen problems" which "made the project go behind schedule" and "now we're going to work extra hard" (meaning overtime without pay).

It's up to management to not only account and prepare for Known Unknowns (problems known to happen but not if, when and how severe - for example employee sickness), but even have margin for Unknown Unknowns (problems that nobody expected).

In fact, half way competent managers will do enough analysis and research upfront to transform many otherwise Know Unknowns into Known Knowns (we know this will happen) and Unknown Unknowns into Known Unknowns - sometimes things are only "totally unexpected" because the necessary upfront research and preparation hasn't been done.

Managing this is literally the core job of low-level and mid-level managers, so if they try and dump on you the responsibility for it or try and extract from you out of contract work to make up for it, they are literally acting in the most selfish personal upside maximizing way possible and just covering their own incompetence.

It is not up to you to make sure an incompetent asshole gets a bonus for doing a shit job and overpromising.

This is literally they kind of situation where, unless you're for example reciprocating equivalent leeway from said manager towards you in the past (say, the kind that'll actually quietly let you go home early if you're having a bad day), you absolutely have the moral high ground to leave it to them to sort it out with whomever THEY are accountable to (be it a client they made deadline promises to based on a plan that would only ever work in the perfect zero-problems situation or their own manager).

[–] sunbrrnslapper@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago

I know this doesn't happen often in practice, but I absolutely cover my teams time off (for what ever reason). Our clients don't pay us enough to have extra staff standing around when everyone is healthy, so I'm the coverage plan. 😕

[–] fizzle@quokk.au 5 points 5 days ago (14 children)

Unpopular opinion here: this is true for some jobs but the more responsibility you develop in your career the more unplanned absences will be noticed.

Yes, you "deserve" sick days as well as all the other supports employees are entitled to in a modern well managed organisation, but quite obviously if you do important stuff then on some days you just won't be around to do those important things.

Like this guy Jason Call for example, I presume that if he's elected is supposed to show up to congress and debate or vote on new legislation. How would you feel if he just didn't do that because he was... you know... off sick? What if he was genuinely unwell a few times when important legislation was passed and then another occasion comes around and he feels like he's coming down with something? He should just be able to take the day because his manager should have just hired more people right? No. Sometimes you've just got to grind it out.

There will be times in most professional jobs when taking a day off because you're unwell is going to let the team down. In my experience, you tell the team what's going on and see what can be done to reduce what's required of you. For example if you're meeting with an important client or whatever then maybe others can help with the prep and you show up late and leave early.

[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 9 points 5 days ago (15 children)

If your absence would break the company, then they need to be compensating you accordingly and have a backup plan.

I've worked heavily in the upper eschelons of BOH for nearly two decades now. I set very very clear boundaries. There are emergency protocols should shit break while i'm on leave.

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