eggshells all the way down : me

[–] FosterMolasses@leminal.space 10 points 11 hours ago

Learning to not be responsible for other people's feelings is the hardest thing I ever did in therapy. It's literally world-opening. I feel like the very nature of how I process thought shifted, I'm talking I don't even get the same outcome on the MBTI eval anymore (which supposedly doesn't change for much of someone's life).

Working through that trauma transmuted my interactions with people from Pollyanna into Dr. House. I don't give a shit what anyone thinks about me anymore, and I gradually learned how to thrive off other people's discomfort lol (which is just a narcissistic control tactic 50% of the time anyway... so go ahead, let them be uncomfortable)

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 20 points 17 hours ago (3 children)

My mom comes from a family like this, so I know what this is talking about. She has a lot of unhealthy behaviour that is a result of a pretty awful childhood.

OTOH, a certain amount of this is healthy. It's good to have empathy and notice that your dad isn't in the best mood. It's kind to try to cheer him up. IMO the difference is whether your behaviour is driven by empathy or fear.

[–] currycourier@lemmy.world 3 points 8 hours ago

Yes! I think that gets lost a lot in this type of discourse. A lot of the time the real underlying issue is that our actions are being driven by fear rather than concious, measured choice.

[–] FosterMolasses@leminal.space 2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

I think that's a big concern which holds a lot of people who've been through this sort of thing back, the fear of "I don't want to come off as callous", without realizing that most people who experience this have inherent empathy that won't be erased so easily if you simply begin prioritizing yourself. It sucks, because you know exactly what it feels like to be around the type of people who only prioritize themselves and you think "Well I don't wanna be like that, I have to care more about how other people are feeling" without realizing how often you bulldoze your own emotions in the process. As my own therapist put it, "You have a right to prioritize and care for yourself, and that doesn't make you at all lacking in empathy."

I think there's also the additional aspect we learn of "taking care of our caretakers" at such a young age when it should have been the other way around and the adults should have been hypersensitive to the needs of their children, who instead were never allowed to be moody and irrational like they should have been at that age because they were too busy emotionally taking care of the adults in their lives. There's actually a word for this in psychology called Enmeshment, and it's a deep developmental trauma.

[–] tetris11@feddit.uk 1 points 11 hours ago

Bit of both I imagine. You love him and fear him

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 9 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

The most confusing thing for me is I have memories of cuddling with mom and also memories of her yelling at me, and I feel like I randomly shift between two different universes.

Its like when I'm in the good moment, my brain temporarily forgets about the trauma... then when the bad moments come, I wonder if the good memories are even real or have I been daydreaming/hallucinating all this time.

I have intrusive thoughts all the time.

I imagine being like 8 years old and in my parents bed cuddling...

then the next scene is when I try to sleep in my room for some "timeout" cuz my energy is drained and I want some alone time, then I have this thought of like... What if my mom stabs me to death while I'm asleep

The juxtapostion of these two scenes is very weird... creates a very weird feeling within me...

both feeling very emotionally attached... and the simultaneous feeling of dread... of fear...

like y'all ever watched Rick and Morty... like it feel like that type of "vibe" of backstabbing...

[–] NannerBanner@literature.cafe 7 points 17 hours ago

The most confusing thing for me is I have memories of cuddling with mom and also memories of her yelling at me, and I feel like I randomly shift between two different universes.

Its like when I’m in the good moment, my brain temporarily forgets about the trauma… then when the bad moments come, I wonder if the good memories are even real or have I been daydreaming/hallucinating all this time.

State-based learning, if you're curious. For the same reason that studying in the same classroom as where you'll take the test means a better outcome, the memories you make when you're happy are easier to recall when you're happy, and the memories you make when you're sad are easier to recall when you're sad.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 70 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Curiously, this is something parents are often on the lookout for with their kids - especially younger and less verbal kids. Watching for physical and emotional queues is the difference between knowing when your kid is genuinely upset and just hungry or sleepy. The tenor of a wail can be the difference between "I've lost my ball under the couch" and "I've seriously injured myself, get me to a doctor asap". You'll also notice little kids adopting coping mechanisms - self-soothing by sucking on a hand or clucking a toy can indicate stress even if your child isn't crying. Flinching from a seemingly harmless object can indicate some kind of pain or trauma (recoiling from food because you've got a sore throat, flinging a book because it has a scary picture, etc).

Kids get older and they start learning how to read queues from their parents in turn. And that's a normal, healthy way to grow, even if what you're discovering about your family is that they're chronically stressed or ill-tempered.

"I noticed my mom was upset, so I tried to cheer her up" is an emotional development you should want to see in your children. Because you're going to be around people who are upset the older you get. And developing empathy is a good thing precisely because it means you're looking outside yourself and recognizing others as people like yourself.

In theory, it sets off a positive feedback loop. You're grumpy, and your parents notice, so they try to cheer you up. They're grumpy, and you notice, so you try to cheer them up. And the net result is less stress, more love, and a stronger bond between family members.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 4 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

emotional queues

cues

[–] tetris11@feddit.uk 2 points 11 hours ago

*breaks down and cries in street from error*

[–] sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (1 children)

Curiously, this is something parents are often on the lookout for with their kids - especially younger and less verbal kids.

... Not the kind of parents the OP image is talking about, no, they're not doing this much or at all.

They're too busy.

From their erractic, extreme emotional shifts.

They'd actually be more likely to mock and punish a child displaying those early coping mechanisms.

I am kind of amazed you managed to describe the opposite of what this image is saying.

What a truly blessed life you must have lived.

Its about a disregulated, unpredictable emotional environment at home, for young kids, causing various kinds of ultimately self-destructive coping mechanisms... as survival mechanisms.

The negative feedback loops.

This isn't about developing empathy, its about growing up in an environment that teaches you that other people's emotions are fundamentally time bombs that can go off, and cause very real problems, so you learn how to defuse them.

Empathy?

No no no, that never happens to or for a kid in this kind of environment, at least not within the household.

The household is an ongoing threat management training simulator, which bomb do I need to defuse now, and how, and if I can't, how do I brace for impact and aftermath... empathy might be a thing they experience and can then maybe eventually internally model, if they know other people and kids, from stable families, but its typically not fully experienced or developed untill years after they get out of that home, and manage to surround themselves with better examples of people.

And even still, the kid, now an adult, learned micro expressions and tone shifts and that kind of stuff as primarily a threat assesment paradigm.

Takes years and decades to unlearn all that CPTSD, retrain your brain, and it usually never fully goes away, you usually just end up with a set of stable coping mechanisms and an insistence on either boundaries and/or local environment control.

By the way, to anyone who actually grew up in an environment the OP describes:

Your entire comment reads as an obvious misdirection from the topic at hand, that's trying to sound neutral and cool, and intelligent, but is insincere, self-aggrandizing by way of obviously shifting the topic to ... whatever it is you wanted to talk about.

It's insulting, disrespectful, and triggering / re-traumatizing.

The abused person's lived experience?

Nah, not important, there's this other thing to talk about, blah blah blah blah blah blah, anyway, what were you talking about?

... Most of the other people who've been abused the way the OP image describes... well, they're too non-confrontational to tell you how they really feel.

Because that's been trained into them.

Because when they tell other people how their actions make them feel... bombs go off.

[–] FosterMolasses@leminal.space 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Seconding this reply, because that was the most blatantly tonedeaf comment I've read in ages. Checked moderation history to see whether they were being intentionally dense as it was approaching gaslighting territory and whaddaya know? lmao

If I had to guess, people like this crave empathy to abuse so no surprise to see them advocate for it.

[–] sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

If I had to guess, people like this crave empathy to abuse so no surprise to see them advocate for it.

While I am hesitant to 'diagnose' this from just the comment I replied to alone...

Yes, that's narcissism you're describing.

Narcissists tend to be incapable of validating themselves, so they do things to garner attention and validation from others, which can lead to many other chains of behaviors, mechanisms, feedback loops.

This would also explain the ... entirely abstract explanation of empathy, while simultaneously totally failing to excercise any actual empathy:

Its a theoretical concept to a narcissist.

Also, its just immensely ironic to give a lecture about empathy, while failing to exercise any.

Low self-awareness.

... and that's coming from me, an Autist, a kind of person who is generally maligned and stereotyped as having "low eq" and not understanding interpersonal social dynamics.

No, no, I understand them better than most, its just that normies (neurotypicals) have a much higher default threshold for tolerating narcissistic behavior, and are also much more blind to it, so then the normies will think that calling out narcissistic behavior is 'overreacting', unless the narcissistic behavior is comically extreme, megalomaniacal.

On a larger scale, that's how you end up with the overconfident leading the blind.

[–] yakko@feddit.uk 36 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Empathy is a double edged sword, it's true. The difference that makes a difference is the emotional maturity of the parents.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

That's normally where the kids learn it from.

What can be scary is when you get to grow up during the Good Times and develop that emotional maturity, then tip into the Bad Times (economic downturn, family drama/death, social upheaval) such that your parents can't hold shit together anymore. Anyone who has lived through the illness/death of a loved one or a divorce or an ugly recession gets to see the impact on their parents in real time.

Suddenly you're caught trying to understand why seemingly proper, happy parents can't manage themselves anymore. It's a lot to ask from everybody - parents and kids alike. One reason why having strong social safety nets and robust public services can be the difference between families struggling through and falling apart.

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[–] Jhex@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Empathy is a double edged sword

No it isn't. I can't think of a drawback to empathy that is worse than anything caused by lack of empathy. Specially empathy towards loved ones

[–] yakko@feddit.uk 12 points 1 day ago (18 children)

I think you mistake my meaning, I wasn't intending to stake the claim you're arguing against. I was only saying empathy can hurt sometimes.

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[–] Wildmimic@anarchist.nexus 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

“I noticed my mom was upset, so I tried to cheer her up” can also mean "i have to cheer mom up because dad was mean to her".

"My siblings are upset, i have to cheer them up" - this is parentification.

I am still very empathic, sensing emotions and reading subtle cues really good - but my brain interprets a lot of stuff as threatening, because all of this sensing was mixed with unpredictability. If you always get the same response, you can learn to work with that - if the response is not predictable, you get fucked up like me.

[–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 8 points 1 day ago (7 children)

In my case it meant "if I can't cheer them up, they'll hit me". They both did it, but my stepdad was worse about the random punishments. Turns out he had undiagnosed schizophrenia, and I was getting hit because he was having hallucinations about me doing/saying something.

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[–] notwhoyouthink@lemmy.zip 4 points 22 hours ago

Your are correct, however you are describing empathy here when the post is about how children become emotional regulators for abusive/absentee parents which becomes a lifelong and debilitating psychological issue for them as adults.

Empathy is best nurtured in a reciprocal manner especially during childhood development and it starts between the child and their caregiver(s).

[–] RebekahWSD@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I know which door was opened and by who so I could be mentally prepared. I still know whose footsteps are whose (although that's easy when the options are twin, cat, or my husband who has cerebral palsy).

[–] PyroNeurosis@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Not to make light of your trauma, but that cat must be a biggun. Pics please!

[–] RebekahWSD@lemmy.world 23 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Aww haha, she can be loud but she's actually very polite!

[–] noodlejetski@piefed.social 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

they wanted the cat, not the Firefox icon.

[–] Stonewyvvern@lemmy.world 43 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I still tiptoe around the house at night, and lightly close doors/cabinets so as not to incur the wrath of waking up my father. Left my parents household over 20 years ago. Some shit sticks with you.

[–] blockheadjt@sh.itjust.works 15 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

Good practice to be careful to not wake anyone up. Anger is a possible consequence of being loud but the real motive is being considerate.

[–] harmbugler@piefed.social 3 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

I'm generally very quiet moving about the house, the downside is I regularly scare the living daylights out of my wife.

[–] FosterMolasses@leminal.space 2 points 11 hours ago

I've been scaring people for 15 years without knowing why lmao, I was nicknamed ninja feet in my college dorm after giving my roommate one too many heartattacks. I couldn't for the life of me figure out for years why people couldn't hear me coming, even when I tried to make my presence known.

[–] Wildmimic@anarchist.nexus 6 points 1 day ago

Same here - I am close to two meters in height and a heavy boy, but i can move so silently that i spook most people when they finally detect me. I actively try to make noise if i come up to someone unsuspecting.

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 46 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yep! And the worst part is in addition to fucking you up, it instills habits with which you can accidentally hurt people you care about. Having a trauma response to legitimate criticism makes your partner uncomfortable bringing up issues they're facing. Most of the issues I've had in my marriage have stemmed from behaviors I learned to protect myself growing up. It's taken a lot of work over the years to improve on these issues, and a lot of communication to ensure that what I'm still struggling with doesn't hurt the relationship.

[–] DaddleDew@lemmy.world 45 points 1 day ago

I live on my own now and I can't possibly go back to living with someone who I have to walk on eggshells like that with.

[–] muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works 4 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

My mother is a narcissistic, divorced, bitter and scorned catholic. Let her loose in an HOA and she’ll turn it into Palestine.

I learned to let her set her own fires, let them burn down her own domain, I hide in my dark cold basement she gets sunlight and a million problems she creates. I let her stew while avoiding her bullshit.

[–] Wildmimic@anarchist.nexus 31 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

That's me - I've been diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder because of situations described above.

I try to be invisible whenever possible. I try to not stand in the way in the subway even if there is enough space to go around. I always try to stand close to a wall - if I cannot see part of a room i get anxious. The worst experience is being in a mess hall or large waiting room, because in addition to the above my brain cannot filter the noise of so many people to find out if there are threatening voices somewhere in the mix.

That also means that I cannot keep social contacts alive. If you call or message me, my brain fears that i did something wrong and i cannot answer. I also can not reach out, because I feel that i will trigger someone to be angry at me. Even if I am simply talking with someone, i suspect that i am a burden in some way, because "just keeping up the conversation" is what i would do to prevent repercussions.

People, don't shout at your kids - verbal aggression is aggression too.

I've been in therapy for a substantial part of my life and at least my autoaggressive behavior has been reduced (not stopped, but it's a lot better than before), but my therapist has told me that i have to dampen my expectations - i will live my life with this until the day i die, i can only learn to compensate in my reaction after going through this shit internal response every. single. time.

[–] SirHamlin@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I think the biggest thing that I try to do with my kiddos around this topic is emotional predictably. I think as others have stated learning abilities to deal with other people's emotions a good ability to have.

My parents were never consistent with their emotions and I am not talking between the two I am talking about them as individuals.. I could get yelled at by my Dad about the same thing twice and the reactions be completely different.

If I am having a bad day and do fly off the handle a bit more than normal I make sure to apologize to my kiddos and explain to them why I reacted the way I did. Now I'm trying to get my babies mama on board.

I think a lot of parents out there forget that thier kids are people too.

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