this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2025
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Socialism

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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of "ML" (read: Dengist) influence. This is a place for undogmatic and constructive discussion from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

A certain knowledge of socialism is expected, if you are new to/interested in socialism, please visit c/Socialism101 before participating here. Socialism101 will gladly help you by answering questions, providing resources etc.

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Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, upvoting good contributions and downvoting those of low-quality!

Rules

1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith discussion is enforced here.

Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism

2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,

as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavour.

3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.

That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" (read: Dengist) (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).

4. No Bigotry.

The only dangerous minority is the rich.

5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.

(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Xenial Xerus" when answering question 2)

6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.

7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:

(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)

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[–] Nanook@lemmy.zip 59 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Let’s go hunting billionaires. 2800 people, good for 50% of the worlds pollution.

[–] SpaceRanger13@lemmy.zip 20 points 4 months ago

Great for 99% of the population. Really only detrimental to those 2800 people and the bootlickers protecting them.

[–] cdf12345@lemmy.zip 12 points 4 months ago

Now that’s a Running Man reboot I’d like to see

[–] BlackLaZoR@fedia.io 40 points 4 months ago (8 children)

I never bought into "you have to suffer to save the planet" thing.

It's all about replacing fossil fuels with renewables and nuclear, not about "using less energy"

[–] grue@lemmy.world 16 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It's also about replacing the high-carbon car-dependent lifestyle that's making you poorer, sicker, and depressed with a lower-carbon walking/biking one that's better for you in all sorts of ways on top of being better for global warming.

[–] lemmyknow@lemmy.today 5 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I'm all for less car. However, when I think of all the shit me family normally buys every week on a supermarket on the other side of town… it already can sometimes be complicated getting it all up the stairs (and you better believe I am NOT gonna go for round two). I can't imagine how difficult it'd be… nay, IMPOSSIBLE, to carry all that shit on foot or bike across town

Granted, back when I had a job and lived alone, going by the supermarket on the way back home was easy. Did it on a daily basis, and never needed too much. Stack shit on my backpack and get going

Other than that, yeah, I walk around a lot. Don't drive much. I imagine, though, travelling could be difficult depending on destination. I can get places with public transport, but I don't know if a back and forth to the beach, for instance, could be easily done (though I've never checked)

[–] baronofclubs@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I empathize with you and understand your position. That being said, if everyone in your community were to be willing to pay higher prices at a more local grocer, they would be able to reduce prices over time. That would also require zoning deregulation and such, but our capitalistic system demands that the larger corporation (with the ability to tank losses more easily,) amasses more consumer loyalty, and therefore drive smaller grocers out of business.

I don't know, I'm drunk and lost the plot halfway through this comment.

[–] lemmyknow@lemmy.today 2 points 4 months ago

Yeah, there is a place close by. 2-3 min. on foot, if not less. But I hear it's pricier. I do go there from time to time, when needed urgent, but am big dumdum, no see price

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[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

doing a costco/sams club would be hard without car!

What if all that stuff were on every corner in smaller packages, or delivered on a regular train route right to your front door every couple weeks in the gratuitous quantities you love?

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[–] Noodle07@lemmy.world 9 points 4 months ago (3 children)

We dont need most of the bullshit energy use of say AI, we should totally reduce it

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It might be necessary to scrimp and save pennies

But doing that while you're still at the roulette table is pretty silly.

[–] untorquer@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

Its about having the political willpower to enact radical change that risks the bottom line for the wealthy.

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[–] KnitWit@lemmy.world 31 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Title is bunch of whataboutism mixed with a strawman. Just because billionaires are destroying the planet, doesn’t absolve anyone else from the damage they are doing.. Article itself is about of bunch of rich people being weird anyways. It’s fashion designers who like the look of no-wash raw denim so they stink up everyplace they go. No different than the Russel Brands who spend vast sums to look like vagabonds.

[–] Feyd@programming.dev 19 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

Yes exactly. As an individual, recognizing that reducing energy/plastic/whatever use is a drop in the bucket and that systemic change is needed wouldn't absolve you of all personal responsibility. It is a multifaceted problem and the corporations that deflect responsibilities and greenwash and individuals are both important.

People also refuse to acknowledge there is a network effect at play. Say a person recognizes that overfishing and plastic net pollution is a problem. If that person continues eating fish from entities doing the damage when they have the ability not to, some percentage of the blame lies with that person. A subset of people is so set in avoiding any type of inconvenience to themselves they lash out at any suggestion they could change their personal behavior on anything

[–] brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

This is, in my opinion, a high burden placed on an individual to to always research how every company they interacts with operates.

Unfortunately, as a consumer many ecological decisions are forced on me because corporations aren't regulated properly. Blaming the consumer to make better choices is asking someone to become intimately familiar with something that they shouldn't be concerned about, and to stay up to date since corporations change their business practices frequently.

This is something ultimately that needs to end up on governments to regulate businesses, and trying to shift the blame to consumers is quite frankly unfair. And even worse, it's ineffective and disheartening to them. People can make better choices for themselves and their local environment. But don't saddle Bob and Sally with saving the planet. It's an untenable ask.

It's not simply changing a behavior of an individual, it's a dramatic shift to their lifestyle. Not in choosing the more ecological option, but asking them to remain interested and vigilant on every decision they make. Picking what fish to buy at the supermarket shouldn't involve figuring out who caught the fish, googling the company, researching what their fishing practices are, and then figuring out if that is a sustainable practice. It's not simple or quick, and most people just really want to figure out what everyone in their family will all eat for dinner that night. We can't expect someone to do a half hour or more of research for every purchase.

This is why government needs to regulate these industries for us. They have the time and knowledge to assess all of that and the power to enforce companies adhere to those practices. We need to help educate people that regulating a business is not the same as regulating their choices or their behavior as an individual. That these sorts of regulations and legislation simply do not, and will not, ever apply to them so that they will encourage their legislators to push for regulation.

[–] Feyd@programming.dev 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I agree on regulation. There is an interaction here you have to acknowledge though. Again I'll use the example of overfishing. When scientists have recommendations to government about fishing regulations, invariably, the government will take the number scientists say is the limit above which ecological damage will occur, and a number that fishers say they want to fish, and choose a number in between. Convincing individuals to support these initiatives (that will force them to change their habits when the upstream dependency of those habits changes) is the same education that would convince them to change their habits in the first place.

I also must insist that you're misrepresenting my opinion. I don't expect every individual to research everything they interact with as you insist. I merely ask that they do the best they can, instead of sticking their head in the sand as too many do currently. I would never fault ignorance, but I will fault willful denial.

[–] brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 months ago

Market forces are there, sure. There is no denying that having a demand leads to these practices. But regulators who are compromising between sustainability and corporate interests, aren't truly regulating. Regulators need to have hard stances on these things and it should be up to the corporations to deal with the limits. Consumers are going to have to deal with products having seasons again, limited availability, or higher prices. The system will stabilize, but it's going to end up there anyway as the climate changes or resources get depleted.

And I apologize. I didn't mean to misrepresent your opinion. I ended up on a bit of a rant there that was only sparked by a notion in your opinion.

People only need to do the best they can, for them, in whatever situation they are in. I get frustrated with the messaging that corporations push that it's up to us as individuals to be responsible and prevent climate change or save the planet when it's our collective responsibility as a society through government regulation.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 6 points 4 months ago (7 children)

How about just asking them to make the obvious choices they don't have to think about or research as much? As an example, switching to plant based meat alternatives like impossible meat or quorn. Not only are they a 1-to-1 drop in replacement, they also haven't skyrocketed in price like real meat has, so they might even save money.

Or at least cutting out red meat and replacing it with impossible. That requires very little thought for both environmental, ethical, and health gains.

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[–] MudMan@fedia.io 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I mean, you really don't have to wash jeans every time you wear them unless you smoke or hang out with smokers.

That said, it seems that the last part of that statement aligns with the title more than the first half suggests. Yes, it's first world people being performative about a dumb thing out of a mix of fashion choice and greenwashing. I think you guys can find common ground there.

I think we can discuss whether the focus on stuff like this has the aggregate effect of absolving corporations or not. It probably does to some extent. I would argue that if you want to act on the damage individuals are doing you still need to set up new incentives for individuals at the legislative or regulatory level. The propaganda side of things is a complement at best.

[–] KnitWit@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The no wash people aren’t doing it for conservation, there is no performative nature there about being green. The title is what OP editorialized about an article about fashion designers and isn’t the real title. One even specifically says he guesses that could be a benefit as well but it’s not the goal. They really do just think it looks cool… I’m definitely on the side of rewearing clothes until they need to be washed, but this is literally attacking people who want to do good in whatever small way by comparing them to fashion designers who do not even reflect on the conservation issue.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Just because billionaires are destroying the planet, doesn’t absolve anyone else from the damage they are doing

Under capitalism, industrial titans squander thousands of hectacres and billions of gallons of water to build a machine that stack ranks the population based on their loyalty to their corporate overlords.

Under socialism, industrial scale services are provided as near at-cost as possible, in order to improve the quality of life for the most people across the largest territory.

One of these systems allows an individual's conservation efforts to echo through the larger population and afford one's neighbors access to resources that would be otherwise exhausted. For the other, you simply don't matter. Your actions are dwarfed by the capricious whims of the dominant economic force. Pretending that you've saved a thimble of water when you're living next to the mega-liter chugging machine isn't absolving you of anything.

[–] KnitWit@lemmy.world 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

If you can’t convince the average citizen to care about conservation, you will never be able to convince the average citizen to hold billionaires accountable for their destruction. Demoralizing people on their efforts to reduce pollution, etc does just as much harm as convincing them that plastic recycling makes it all better. Me saving a thimble of water may only save a thimble of water, but by doing so I have actively worked towards a better future as opposed to passing it off. Its the same as the ‘your vote doesn’t matter’ people. Do not discourage those who want to help.

[–] stickly@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

Yeah I feel like many commenters are missing that it's a change in mindset more than any massive impact. Once you start monitoring your plastic waste/water usage/diet, you're out of the inactive inertia. You can really start to grasp the scale of the problem and who's causing it.

One person cutting back doesn't change anything and 100,000 might not make a splash either. But it's easier to motivate societal change when 100,000 people are vocal and invested.

[–] LaLuzDelSol@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago (23 children)

Hot take but capitalism is not deliberately wasteful. No seriously, there's no point in deliberately wasting time or money expending a resource that you have no use for. Now, does that mean capitalism is efficient with resources? No not really, at least not from a conservation perspective. But any company that consumes resources does so in order to provide goods or services to someone. And a large portion of those resources are to provide goods and services to consumers like you and me. Worried about water consumption? Here are the biggest water withdrawal sources in the US:

-thermoelectric power: directly tied to electricity consumption, about half of which is residential

-irrigation: different types of food use massively different amounts of water.

-public supply: goes without saying

Those 3 things are more than 90% of us water demand. If people could cut their power bills by 30%, stop eating meat and conserve water personally by say 50%, US freshwater withdrawals would easily go down by more than a third, if not more. And that's with zero change in behaviors from billionaires or corporations (apart from producing less in general in response to reduced demand).

My point is that about 2/3 of water usage in the US is to provide food, electricity and water to the 99%. We have agency and our actions are not insignificant.

[–] zero_spelled_with_an_ecks@programming.dev 9 points 4 months ago (7 children)

not deliberately wasteful

Planned obsolescence has entered the chat. And that's just one of probably dozens of counterpoints. Conspicuous consumption is another one.

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[–] milk@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 4 months ago

In general I agree with the point the post makes, but the referenced article doesn't say that at all. Almost all of the article talks about how people do this because its fashionable

[–] azolus@slrpnk.net 7 points 4 months ago

It's wash-washing!

[–] Pupsocks@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago

Problem is.. Those who say they 'trust their nose' are the ones who stink the most.

[–] shplane@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago (7 children)

Stop buying from corporations owned by billionaires and start shopping local/supporting your neighborhood businesses

[–] zero_spelled_with_an_ecks@programming.dev 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

s/no wash/buy local/

I don't think getting a majority of people to change habits will ever work. Did you see how people acted during the pandemic? So, once again, relying on individual action to solve systemic issues is still not a viable solution.

[–] shplane@lemmy.world 6 points 4 months ago

We also need individual action to vote for politicians who create legislation to stop billionaires from fucking our planet.

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