A community to organize and discuss the growth of the fediverse as a whole
Seems like it's an issue for potential new joiners
Tbh I kinda agree with this comment:
I've said it before, we need the lowest possible barrier to entry possible if we are to be successful at attracting users in greater numbers, especially casual ones (which are desperately needed here).
I was surprised by the comment about contrast, knowing that the /r/blind community switched to Lemmy.
Just had a look at what https://rblind.com/ looks like. Hm, yeah, definitely different.
About the double input for password, Google still uses it, so it seems to still be an industry standard
Confirm password fields reduces conversion rates. Google has such a chokehold on the market that I doubt they care about that and might be more interested in potentially reducing password reset traffic after miss typed password inputs. Though in fairness I think it's doubtful if there is even a benefit in that area from having confirm password fields. At least if you have a proper unmasking or "show password" option while registering.
At least if you have a proper unmasking or “show password” option while registering.
I just tried on both Voyager and Photon, and indeed none of them have an "unmask" button for the passwords. @[email protected] and @[email protected], do you think it would be possible to add that?
Ironically, the default Lemmy UI does:
Argh I wish browsers handled that themselves for password inputs
If a website doesn't let me view a password, I use the inspect element to change the input type.
I have always done copy/paste for password confirmations. "Yes" and "confirm" is new for me, I haven't heard of such inputs. 🤣🥃
The comment seems a bit far-fetched as the screenshot literally has "Confirm password"in the field
Mlem dev here. Mlem shows this warning for instances that require registration applications to be approved first (which, these days, is all instances).
The aim here was to make it clear to users that they won't be able to use their account immediately after signing up - otherwise, users may be confused that they can't log in. I do agree that it's a little scary though... we'll think about some ways to tone it down. I'm open to suggestions for better wording.
I wasn't aware that lemmy.world automated their process. It's possible that we could provide a different UI for certain instances that use similar systems, but we'd have to hard-code each case which isn't ideal.
The ability to sign up in Mlem was only added a month ago - before that, we directed users to the web browser to sign up. Our current implementation leaves much to be desired, but is more user-friendly than requiring the user to visit a website. I'm planning to make some improvements to the system in future. I was reading this Lemmy post the other day, which I think has some good ideas.
Here's an overview of our current sign-up flow, fyi:
Click to expand
When the user first opens the app, there is no full-screen onboarding flow. They are not asked to choose an instance - instead, they are connected as a guest to lemmy.world. This avoids scaring the user away with the concept of "instances" before they have the chance to see any content. Here's the first thing the user sees:
If the user taps "sign up", they are shown a list of instances ranked by their score on lemmyverse.net. This is one of the areas that I think needs the most improvement - we don't currently tell the user what an instance actually is, and the way that instances are sorted means that most users probably choose Lemmy.world, which isn't ideal.
And finally when the user taps on an instance they get shown the page you've already seen a screenshot of:
Thank you for the details!
Reddit has the benefit of being closed source and therefore having secret anti spam filters. We don't have that benefit and therefore the new user registrations need to be rigorous. "frictionless registrations" also means thousands of spam bots. Reddit doesn't require any but the downside is that they ban your account at the drop of a hat if they as much as suspect you're a spammer or bot. However it does leave their registration appearing "simple".
Reddit has the benefit of being closed source and therefore having secret anti spam filters. We don’t have that benefit and therefore the new user registrations need to be rigorous.
This is a bs argument considering that instances can and indeed a few already do maintain similar automated anti-spam and auto-moderation tools. The droves of instances that choose to function as clubs with application process aren't doing it that way because it's the only way, they're doing it because they want to or don't understand how to set up automoderation tools.
Reddit doesn’t require any but the downside is that they ban your account at the drop of a hat if they as much as suspect you’re a spammer or bot. However it does leave their registration appearing “simple”.
That is true, and it does seem to be a problem on instances that use aggressive automod like sh.itjust.works, though it does streamline the process by going from preemptively trying to deem people unworthy to punishing and cleaning out the ones who cause trouble (give or take a few false positives). People don't have to be worried they won't be rejected if all they want to do is look at memes, upvote, and laugh (we shouldn't expect more from them on a Reddit alternative).
The droves of instances that choose to function as clubs with application process aren't doing it that way because it's the only way, they're doing it because they want to or don't understand how to set up automoderation tools.
Pray tell, what experience do you have hosting lemmy instances or even social media websites to speak with such authority?
People don't have to be worried they won't be rejected if all they want to do is look at memes, upvote, and laugh
People can get banned for the wrong types of memes and for bad voting patterns in lemmy
People can get banned for the wrong types of memes and for bad voting patterns in lemmy
I'm not sure how bad the false positive rate is on instances like sh.itjust.works and lemmings.world, though from what I've heard it's nowhere near as bad as Reddit's false positive rate (which is probably a lot of intentional checks for arbitrary censorship).
This is a bs argument considering that instances can and indeed a few already do maintain similar automated anti-spam and auto-moderation tools.
Seems weird to say this to the creator of https://gui.fediseer.com/
Why? It's true and if the Lemmy Devs themselves aren't even aware of the existence of effective auto-moderation on the Fediverse I'm not going to assume anyone else is either. People aren't exactly bragging about or advertising auto-moderation tools on Lemmy so it's understandable they'd be less known about and also less deployed.
How do you know they're not aware?
Anyone can find those comments about the 3 largest instances
It's a more charitable interpretation than to assume they're doing an intentional appeal to futility, or are pushing for the gatekeeping aspect of application based signup processes. Unfortunately both are very common tactics when other people discuss the manual approval club vs. automod spam removal debate.
Note, when I say gatekeeping I'm talking about the people who say that they want it because they don't want people in the fediverse who will "laugh and upvote" and spew some garbage about people needing to put in effort to join lemmy, you know, the usual elitism that has held Lemmy and Fediverse platforms back for a long time.
I just texted you on Matrix to invite you to the Lemmy Defense HQ channel
It's quite interesting to see how many spam accounts admins have to remove even with their automated tools enabled.
Dbzer0 isn't a generalist instance, and doesn't want or have to be.
The big 3 I posted above are good enough to welcome new joiners looking for a generalist instance with a minimalist application process. Lemm.ee especially now being the default for both Photon and Voyager is definitely getting most of the new comers
Already in that channel but thank you anyway for the invite.
Alright
There's no way to revert the warning, at least without forking the app. Also, I'd expect most people to accept the idea applications once you tell the purpose (to fight bots).
Also, I’d expect most people to accept the idea applications once you tell the purpose (to fight bots).
I'm not going to tell them that because it's not really true, we currently have automated solutions for bot detection and banning that are way more user-friendly as they eliminate that process of being slowly, manually deemed worthy. They're just unfortunately slightly more effort to set up. I'll just recommend people join the few servers that use them and allow open sign-ups without having to justify why you want to join lemmy.
Could you inform me of the servers that use these methods? I knew they existed, but I lack information on which instances employ them.
I see. @[email protected], do you think it would be possible to change the message to make it less "scary" to potential new joiners?
Sure, you'd just have to change this line, though I'm no sure what would be better.
Hey there! To hop onto this server, we just need you to answer a few questions. Don’t worry, an admin will check them out before giving you the green light! This little step helps us make sure you’re a real human and not a bot. You aren't a bot, are you? 🤨
It's a longer message, but much more casual and friendly.
Admins don't manually check each application for the largest servers
I knew that, but didn't feel the need to include that because that is far from the norm. I still feel like my original message is pretty good and friendly; we could make slight modifications.
I would just go from
To join this server, you need to fill out this application, and wait to be accepted.
To join this server, you need to fill out this form.
Seems less formal the application, and removes the "select" aspect (which is deterrent based on the Reddit comments).
@[email protected], what do you think?
But that doesn't make it clear that the application needs to be approved before the user can use their account.
Because that's not always the case. For LW for instance
our registration application system is completely automated
Hm, that's far from typical so I'm not sure how a generic dialogue would accommodate both. World might want to hide the dialogue on web front ends, though I'm not sure how to also get that reflected in apps like Mlem.
Lemm.ee also automated some the detection of bad actors
We have automated a lot of this stuff on lemm.ee as well
https://lemm.ee/post/57987370/18836511
Edit: SJW as well based on the parent comment
SJW doesn't have an application question and this from Sunaurus in the parent comment seems to imply they manually approve applications as well:
We have a custom question on our sign-up page asking people to state they agree to our rules, and it’s relatively common that people just don’t read the question and write something random in there - we generally don’t accept such applications to try and weed out bots, but I’m pretty sure we also end up rejecting a bunch of legit users this way who just didn’t read the instructions.
I'd be interested to know how World automates their sign up process. Guessing from their application question they might just look for the phrase "I agree to the TOS" in answers, which would be fairly simple to implement but I wouldn't personally feel confident in it.
Hello @[email protected], could you please provide more details, without revealing too much?
Most applications are handled automatically, a smaller percentage is sent to manual approval for admins. This is based on different signals and the aim is to potentially reduce some abuse, or at least make it a bit harder.
Median time for accepting applications in the past month on lemm.ee was 1 minute and 42 seconds. And that includes the time it took for users to manually verify their e-mails first.
World just has a bot that checks the answer and also if the person's email is a known temp email (or not a whitelisted email provider). They also seem to have modified it so the application is sent at the same time as email verification.
The delay itself is friction actually but I don't think that's avoidable I guess. In an ideal world you'd be off and going as soon as you hit register.
Maybe something like
It may take a moment to process your application
or something sounds less scary than needing to be approved.
Some instances have an automated process, see my other comment