this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2024
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When the average right winger treats guns like toys it's a good sign for every leftist to also own guns.
I canβt fathom how people saw police beating protesters to death in 2020, are decrying the new Trump presidency as the rise of fascism in America, and still believe that the government should be the only ones with firepower in their hands.
Now is exactly the time when the left should be rallying behind the second amendment.
I dont see a problem with owning guns. Its just taken too lightly in the states. To get a gun where im at, you need to get certified - theoretical, physical and psychological tests are done. And no one starts pissing about personal freedoms if they fail these tests. I think you also need to be member of a shooting club. Point is, you need to demonstrate your ability to handle a weapon responsibly. Im not one to confuse correlation with causation but... you dont see many stories of shootings here.
Aren't shooting clubs and the licensing prohibitively expensive? This is just to disarm the working class. If the poor can't afford equal protection they are slaves.
I wouldn't look at it from that perspective. Similar situation with driving licenses, which require first aid training, 20+ hours of driving lessons with an instructor, theory lessons, testing, and costly things of that nature. If you want a gun and are fit to own one, you will not have a problem doing so, no matter your class.
And that is where the difference between privileges and rights is. Privileges exist by definition for the privileged.
Ah yes. The true red blooded American solution; the only way to solve a serious problem is to escalate it out of proportion.
Why is arming yourself in self defense escalating it out of proption when leftists do it?
*When anyone does it.
The solution to there being too many guns is to remove the guns. Not add more.
The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun
How would you stop a fascist with a gun that wants to put you in a camp?
If you are lgbtq, on any mental health medication, or a immigrant as a result of natrual born citizenships then you need to realistically ask yourself this question, because that's the stated policy of the new president.
Real obvious answer, you shoot them.
Demonstrably false.
https://archive.is/xQqYY
Gotta be honest, those numbers are looking pretty good if only 7% of people always carry but 34% of shootings were stopped by one of those 7%. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a good majority of the remaining 65% weren't stopped with a gun because nobody there had one at the time. Same for the ones that weren't stopped by any bystanders armed or otherwise.
In at least one of those police just stood outside with theirs for two hours.
And yet there is no way of knowing that, so you're just making an unprovable assertion. I showed data.
That 34% came from your data, feel free to search for the amount of carriers and choose your favorite estimate and use that, it's still lower than 34%. As for the motivations for "not stop with gun" think critically, it's simply more likely that if such a low percentage of people carry daily, there's a higher chance that nobody there has one at any given location/time (aside from expected locations like "gun store" or "police station" where of course the likelihood of the presence of guns jumps to 100%, but for some reason those are rarely targeted). Would you rather stop a shooter with a gun of your own or risk bare handing it?
See above, re: unprovable assertion.
Yes yes ignore any other data, I'm gonna be honest dude I don't actually care if you believe the data or not, you can look it up if you really care but you're clearly more interested in dismissing it so, have a nice day I guess, this little subthread has reached its logical conclusion, goodbye.
I can't look up data that doesn't exist.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=percent+of+americans+carry+guns&ia=web
Since you evidentially are unaware of the existence of search engines I'll provide this helpful link.
Now, if you just wholly reject the concept of estimates (lol but you do you) you can go with the raw "has CCW" number which is tracked, though low (due to constitutional carry/open carry), and would benefit my argument. Again IDGAF, 34% ain't that bad of a percentage for how few people carry whether you believe it or not, and you're clearly dead set on your preconceived notions that misrepresented data is good and estimates are bad (though there is the 8% of americans with verifiable CCW permits, that ain't no estimate), so again I must bid thee adeu.
Sorry, that doesn't prove that there were no armed people in the majority of those situations. That's not how statistics work. It is not an even distribution and I don't think you're stupid enough to believe it is. You made an unprovable assertion.
Ok pal.
That's certainly one way to weasel out of the uncomfortable truth that statistics about owning any consumer good over a broad population in a capitalist system is not evenly distributed.
You're the one who doesn't want to engage, you can't then claim I'm "weaseling out." You've put forth no counter argument to argue further, this is your doing not mine, I'm just refusing to play your silly game.
I'm engaging with you this entire time and "that is not an even distribution" is literally a counter-argument. You just don't like it.
If it helps to use the 8% verifiable "CCW holders" then fine, there's still a low likelihood that any given person there has a gun to respond. The fact that you don't believe in "probability" isn't really my issue, everyone else understands it just fine.
Are you "refusing to play my silly game" or are you accepting that I am engaging with you and making a counter-argument and will continue to discuss this with me?
Because it can't be both.
I'm refusing to play by reiterating my original point and elaborating on said silly game of "nuh uh estimations and mathematical probability are fake news." Check your house for gas leaks.
And now that you've decided to hurl insults, we're done here.
Incidentally, a gas leak is one of the options I'm looking into in four to five years depending on the laws in Canada or certain other countries. Shall I let you know?
We've been done, you just refuse to shut up when someone politely declines your silly bullshit lol.
"Depending on the laws..." is it only legal to kill yourself or others with a gas leak in Canada? You planning on starting a gas leak? Not sure I want to know what you mean by that weird ass sentence but if you're experiencing suicidal or homicidal ideation of some sort please seek help, it's never the option you should take. I don't like you and don't let me know, but someone does I'm sure and I hope you get the help you need.
If you don't like me, wouldn't you want to know?
That's exactly what the medically-assisted euthanasia will be doing, so thank you. I thought you didn't like me.
No? Ideally we would just stop talking now and that's that. I don't hope you die or kill someone just because I don't like you, if you wish that on people just because you don't like them you seriously need help.
Although I suppose I didn't consider medically assisted, I'm not opposed to that, as much as I'm not a fan of you I'm sorry to hear it.
In any case fuck off.
Where did you get that "65%" and "34%" from? It doesn't match the information in the graph you are responding to.
Then what percent of 64 is 42 and 22?
Oh, I see. You're only counting the times when a bystander successfully intervened. (And now you're being snarky about it, rather than just saying that's what you did.)
In my interpretation, the 113 times where the attacker left the scene are also relevant.
Well we could count the times where nobody intervened, but that doesn't negate that "that means there was nobody there with a gun to intervene" either. (And I was born snarky tyvm.)
Sure they're relevant, it's just that in most of them there was no gun other than the one held by the shooter (who in many cases wasn't allowed to bring it either) and nobody stopped him with their judo.
Of the ones that did get stopped, 34% were stopped with something that is only 8% likely to be there. That's still significant numbers whether you like it or not.
Even still, 22 is 9% of 249, that's still at least consistent with "likelihood gun there" based on 8% of carriers. I'd say it further supports my guess that "when not, it because gun not there."
And none of this even takes into account the propensity to choose gun free zones as targets further lessening the likelihood of armed response, but I think I'll mention that now.
Finally, it's a bit out of the scope of mass shootings alone but as for defensive gun use per year Harvard estimates it at 100,000/yr, which is more than our gun deaths including suicide yearly. That is also worth mention as while mass shootings themselves are also rare, defense with firearms happens more than death with firearms yearly as a whole.
Hmm.. If you say 8% of people carry guns, then surely there's a much higher than 9% chance that someone will have a gun at the scene. So something seems a bit off there.
I'd suggest that instead of just imagining how the percentage of people carrying guns might effect these stats, it might be better to try to measure that effect by looking at similar stats for other countries where gun carrying is far less common.
Idk sounds about right to me, 8%-8%. What do you expect, 8% of people carry so 50% of people have a gun on them at any given time? No, more like 8% of people have one at any given time, therefore 8% chance. Your figures seem off to me considering there are none, "nuh uh" isn't a rebuttal.
Yes I'd imagine in other countries where no bystanders have guns shootings and stabbings are stopped less by bystanders with guns, because they don't have them. We can see this play out in cases like the one in the UK where the shooter was stopped with a mammoth tusk ripped from a nearby museum. Frankly this seems to support my hypothesis that you have to have a gun to be able to use a gun.
I'm saying that if 8% of people carry guns and there are 20 such people at a particular location, then the probability that someone in the group has a gun would be
1-(1-0.08)^20which is around 80%. For 1 person, it's 8%, for 2 people it's 15%, and so on.But whatever. I can see you are firmly in the camp of 'we need good people with guns to stop bad people with guns' - a view that basically only exists where gun-violence is endemic.
Well unfortunately, there's already 600,000,000 with no registry to know where, so those are staying. That puts your options at either protect yourself should you ever have to (hopefully, and likely, you never will) or don't and just hope it all works out. Sure, in countries where there already aren't guns I'm not saying they should get more, but they're here to stay.
And I know that if I were in a mass shooting and had to try and stop the shooter, I'd rather have one than not, idk about you.
The best way to stop a good guy with a gun is to shoot first (in countries where there's a good chance you might be shot if you're committing a crime)
Of course, if you go from serial robber to serial murderer, that brings a whole lot more heat. Probably best to just get like, a job and stuff, less people get shot painting houses.