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FDR threw 100,000 Americans into concentration camps. Idc what conservatives think of him, fuck that guy.
He also created the social safety net system that has saved millions of lives.
And in your opinion that excuses seizing innocent people's property and throwing them in concentration camps?
I didn't say that, and I don't believe that, so don't put words in my mouth.
The detainment of the Japanese was unconscionable, and easily the biggest mistep of FDR's career, but he did a LOT of things right for America and the World, and on balance his good FAR outweighed the bad.
FDR's was the strongest supporter of labor that this nation has ever had, and his New Deal was the best Worker-oriented program in history. Because of his support of labor and unions, we got all the workplace protections that we have today:
Do you think we got things like paid vacations, sick days, and 8 hour work days because the generosity of Corporations? No, we FORCED them to recognize workplace health/safety/environmental regulations, and treat workers like humans instead of animals, or machines, to be exploited to death, and discarded, and FDR was the president that championed all that, and made it happen.
And don't forget, he also established Social Security, so we don't have an Army of old people camping in our streets of every American city.
Then after all that, FDR won WWII, and kept us all from having to learn to speak German and/or Japanese.
So yeah, out of four terms, in which he set American workers on a dignified path for their daily labor, and saved the world from one of the most psychotic nations in the history of the world, he made one bad mistake by succumbing to the fears of the nation during one of our darkest periods. While it should always be acknowledged as a serious mistake, it should never fully define his entire legacy.
Only to save the capitalist (fascist) system. Intentions matter sometimes.
He was as far from that system as an president has ever been. He was strongly pro-Labor, pro-Union, pro-Worker. He created Social Security and the modern American social safety net.
Conservatives hated him, and there was even talk of a coup by the business interests.
He is the closest we've had to a Democratic Socialist, and America, and the World would be much better off if his style of Democrat had become the trend, instead of the Republican Lite bullshit we ended up with.
He pivoted to the positions that win him the election. Please 🥺
Good things done for bad reasons are still good. Would you rather have a reaper who protects life so as to har est more souls or life who cleanses all so as to raise the value of what survives?
What? That doesn't even make sense. Death is a natural part of the life cycle, just as "night" is a natural part of the day cycle, whether in the Arctic regions or the roughly 24 hour regions.
No one said good things can't come from ill intentions, one might pause and ask, "if I hadn't settled for a hot dog for a hundred years, growing an intestinal tumor for my troubles so that now I can't eat and pay rent, might I be enjoying decent housing, food, clean water and adequate medical care as a human right?"
If you think FDR didn't show true allegiance to Workers, Labor, and Unions, you have no idea what you are talking about. He didn't just give it lip service to get elected, he strongly supported major reforms to the entire business realm. We went from dangerous, low paying sweatshops, to the modern workplace, entirely because of FDR's unwavering support of labor.
And Conservatives have hated him ever since, and have spent every minute since then trying to get back to the pre-FDR workplace standards.
Here, from the liberal Wikipedia even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal_coalition
I don't know how you think that proves your point that Roosevelt only took those positions to win the election. He created policies and programs that helped American citizens through the Great Depression, who rewarded him by voting for him. That's how politics is supposed to work.
I always appreciate it when my opponent proves my point for me.
I can't help the memory hole.
I mean he kind of had to or admit he changed his rhetoric merely to keep capitalism alive. People still cared about appearances, back then.
What are you talking about? He didn't "change his rhetoric." He was governor of NY when the Great Depression hit, and like a leader should, he changed priorities to deal with this overwhelming event. He did a good job, and people voted for him for president.
That's what politicians are supposed to do, not make empty promises to get votes, and then make excuses as to why they can't do it. FDR followed through, and established an entirely new, more humane, working environment for American citizens.
Ok, but
The very next paragraph, and the rest of the post, is essentially "I said that, and I believe that".
Pointing out that he also did things you like is justifying the atrocities he committed. If a man throws people into concentration camps that's the only thing we should ever talk about when his name comes up. There's no coming back from that. Your attitude is giving me "Mussolini made the trains run on time" vibes.
I never said that anything "excuses" the mistake of the Japanese Internet camps. I said that they should be acknowledged as the horrific mistake that it was, but ON BALANCE, he was a highly successful president, even with that black mark. That's not excusing it, it is treating history responsibly, and not trying weaponize it to advance an agenda.
Millions died fighting in WW2, or were gravely wounded, and many were draftees, like my father-in-law, who didn't want to go, but were forced to. Many, many American families made terrible involuntary sacrifices for the war, and unfortunately, the Japanese were forced to contribute to the war by their involuntary internment.
It wasn't the best situation, but considering the sacrifices that many Americans made, it wasn't the worst either. The Japanese internment camps weren't pleasant, but they weren't Auschwitz either. Families weren't being separated as they came off the trains, with some sent to work, and the rest to the gas chambers. I'm sure there were many Americans actually fighting on the front lines of the war that would have been happy to be in an interment camp back in America, rather than having German bullets whizzing by their heads in the Battle of the Bulge or Okinawa.
You are concerned with 100,000 that were wrongfully interned, instead of the millions of lives that were saved by the war, and the Japanese internment was considered a necessary step in the fast-moving preparations for the war. They worried about how deep any Japanese government influence might have reached, and they couldn't wait to find out when a spy sabotaged their war efforts, so they took a broad stroke to avoid it. Whether that decision was right or wrong, it was a different war, and a different time, and applying your contemporary attitudes to history, without properly considering the historical context, is lazy historical thinking.
Unions, Labor, Social Security, Employment Reforms, End of Child Labor, workplace Health/ Safety/ Environmental regulations, etc. have improved, and even saved, the lives of millions of people, including you and literally EVERYONE you know, and yet you would surrender all of it, because the president who did all that, made a mistake during the worst war in human history.
Apparently the difference between you and I is that I don't believe there's room for a "yeah, but...". I don't believe in weighing the good and the bad when it comes to evil people.
I don't care if he passed social security. I don't care if he sold Stalin and Churchill the weapons they needed to win WW2. I don't care if he cured cancer, cholera, and the common cold. Just like I don't care that Hitler built the Autobahn. He's still fucking Hitler.
FDR illegally seized the property of 100,000 Americans and threw them in concentration camps based solely on their race. End of legacy. Fuck FDR and get his fascist ass face off my dime.
YOU are the problem with America. This mentality is why MAGA controls our nation.
FDR didn't kill those people, his actions are not the same as Hitler's. Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus, and the North operated POW camps that made Nazi Concentration camps look like a resort.
War is an ugly, monstrous thing, and decent people are forced to make immoral decisions. Some are going to be right and some are going to be wrong. We never know until it's over, and have to live with the consequences. You have no idea if interning those people means that a spy was bottled up, and couldn't sabotage the war effort toward the Japanese. The internment may have saved the war, but we'll never know.
What I do know, is that after the war, those people went free. They were NOT detained for life, they weren't executed. OTOH, Social Security has saved millions of lives, and employment reforms have saved millions of lives, and both have greatly improved the lives of EVERY American worker, every single day. That kind of fundamental improvements in the lives of every American cannot be simply dismissed because of one disagreeable action. ON BALANCE, FDR's good works far outweighed his worst mistake.
You are one of those shallow political thinkers who only see black & white, and are incapable of processing any nuance, which is unfortunately what politics is all about for many people. They want it to be easy, and morally indisputable, but the world is far more complicated than simple concepts or solutions. Your leaders are not going to be perfect saints, and if you insist that they are, then we are going to have nothing but MAGAs running our country in the future.
Thing is, you're arguing with someone who chose to call themself "the_crotch". This is not someone who appreciates subtlety.
Valid.
Interesting you bring up MAGA. They're currently building concentration camps. Are you going to hand wave that too? Apparently the dow is over 50,000. Hypothetically, how high would the Dow have to go before you'd forgive trump for building concentration camps? When does it go from "horrific human rights abuses" to "he was a complicated man"? How expensive is it to buy your respect?
Having your face on currency is apparently a great honor in this country. I'm not suggesting we end social security or the interstate highway program. But get his smug fascist ass face off the dime. Good countries don't honor men who throw people in concentration camps.
WTF are you talking about? Who cares about the fucking dime? You're the MAGA supporting the end of Social Security and all workplace protections because of one mistake made during the biggest war in human history.
You would kill MILLIONS of Americans in the nearly century since WW2, because some people were once inconvenienced during that war. Refugees are an ugly reality of war, and America has been able to avoid it for the most part. This is as close as we've come, and at least we learned some harsh lessons from it, that will lead us to avoid such choices in the future. That is about the best you can expect from the limited positive outcomes from any war.
I'm sorry for what happened to the Japanese-Americans in WW2 (for which our government has apologized, and compensated), and I hope we never do anything like that again. But do I think that FDR, and all the lifesaving programs he accomplished should be dismissed because of one disagreeable decision during the worst war in human history? Of course not, that's just STUPID.
I support removing this garbage human being's portrait from the dime and that's all. You apparently support hand waving atrocious civil rights violations by saying they're just "one mistake". So where's your line? What would trump have to do to buy your respect? Clearly you have a price.
Go tell your grandmother that you want her to lose her Social Security, and go tell your boss that you'll be glad to work on dangerous equipment 16 hours a day, 6 days a week ( so you can to Cult on Sunday), with no overtime or any other benefits, all for payment in company scrip.
And make sure you tell them it's because of Japanese Internment Camps from a century ago.
Nobodys talking about getting rid of social security. Stop moving the goal posts and stop defending objectively shitty people because they had some policies you liked.
YOU are the one who has dismissed FDRs ENTIRE legacy because of one mistake, which means that if you had your way, and FDR wasn't president to intern the Japanese-Americans, you would be perfectly comfortable without Social Security or any of the workplace and employment benefits that YOU take for granted.
So you are advocating for not interning the Japanese-Americans, in exchange for surrendering all of FDRs labor reforms.
MOST Americans would not make that trade, including most Japanese-Americans.
That "one mistake" being throwing 100,000 Americans into concentration camps. That's at least 100,000 mistakes.
I am not advocating for time travel. I am advocating removing a really bad person's portrait from the dime. You do know that removing him from the dime wouldn't automatically invalidate every law he passed, right?
So what would you trade in Trump's case? You're clearly willing to negotiate on atrocities, what would he have to bribe you in order for you to ignore his?
You really are BAD at this.
The difference is that FDR's presidency was basically one major improvement for American citizens after another, including winning the worst war in human history, and his positive improvements still provide daily significant protections for every American citizen to this very day. He actually has a positive legacy to BALANCE the Internment issue, which is basically his only misstep in 4 terms.
Trump does not have ANY positive policies to mitigate the many, many criminal instances of treason, corruption, murder, pedophilia, and more that he has partaken in or facilitated. There will be no "trades" in Trump's case, he will be lucky to avoid being the first president to be executed, which is what he deserves.
You owe nearly everything positive in your life to FDR. Without the protections he put on workers, and regulations for employers, we would still have dangerous workplaces like the early 20th centuries, with long hours, low pay, and no benefits, which is exactly what MAGA wants to return to.
That's why I'm asking you what it would take. It's a hypothetical. You believe it's possible to find a balance in evil people, so what would that balance be?
If trump passed a really good national healthcare plan, would you forgive him for his concentration camps? How about a $30 minimum wage? UBI?
What if he gave you, personally, $10 million dollars? Would that be a big enough bribe to spin your moral compass?
Trump is a Corrupt, Pedophile, Rapist, Traitor. He could give me a billion dollars, and I'd still happily flip the switch on the electric chair, and go out and celebrate with a beer.
You're blowing nonsense, because you don't have a clue how politics works, and that's the problem with both sides - too many ignoramuses, who think their ignorant opinion should matter.
I don't care how politics works. I care that a man who sent 100,000 innocent people to concentration camps is being honored by having his face on a coin, and I care that I'm forced to share a society with people who believe it's possible to forgive that behavior as long as they get something out of it.
You are too shallow-minded to deal with. Move along.
Oh darn, I don't get to hang out with a person who believes there's any excuse for throwing 100,000 Americans in concentration camps, my night is ruined.
Are you curious how those policies were funded, what people out of USian eye- and earshot may have suffered, and who profited the most from it?
This is a discussion about the history of American labor and the American workplace, FDR's influence on that, and whether he should be honored for that, or if ored because he made a single mistake, that EVERYBODY has acknowledged was wrong, apologized, and paid reparations.
His legacy obviously affected the world at large, since he was Commander-In-Chief of one of the Allied Militaries on WW2, and the influence of the Allied victory shaped the New World Order that followed, but that's a larger discussion for another time.
No, it's for anytime. None of those things stand alone.
Arguing with idiots is so exhausting