BonfireOvDreams

Homie the problem with breeding them like this is selecting them to ovulate 300 times a year so we can steal their excretions.

Symbiotic relationships don't involve human breeding intervention. Least of all when it's for selecting traits that come to the animal's detriment. I'm not opposed to rescuing animals or providing accomodations for animals facing extinction so as to safetly raise young with minimimal human interaction.

You know what else isn't a partnership? Slitting their throats. Which happens to these chickens. Thats creepy. Assuming you aren't Vegan, which I don't think you identify as much, idk why you care if they go extinct - because you want to keep eating them? I just don't see good faith framing in your interpretation of what I said at all.

Supplements and well managed diets do help, but of the available data, it looks like 12-35% are still deficient depending on area of the world. I checked for studies in USA and Europe. And of course, once that's determined for particular chicken who end up producing thin shell eggs - they get killed.

And ultimately, they've been bred to rely on said diet and supplementing. Vegans are against breeding as it is, let alone breeding them to be dependent.

The eggshell requires calcium. At the rates at which modern egg laying hens ovulate, their bones become far more fragile to siphon it. That is to say that their ability to self sustain and survive for the total lifespan of a chicken is greatly reduced.

I'm supportive of a diversity of tactics not just for particular 'brands' activists are given, but for differing response to particular people. Tash has many forms of activism, many of which are far less disruptive and agressive. There are a few things I think you are failing to consider.

This particular individual is a proud animal abuser with a massive financial incentive to continue his actions. This particular person outright banned all Vegans from their restaurant because of a review he didn't like that simply pointed out the owner's mistake in forgetting a pre-arranged meal and overcharging for a barebones last minute offering. Banning a group of people with a shared ethical position in any other case would be obviously discriminatory. Sorry, someone who is outspokenly anti-Vegan is not going to have a compassionate and understanding response no matter how kindly you approach them.

The business owner themself set the bad faith precedent. There was no discussion to be had at this event. Of note however, post this event, Tash has since had tv debates with the business owner. He is still incredibly bad faith. Some discourse needs ridicule. There are some nazi's you'd probably be fine with seeing punched, and I don't see how this is all that different.

The goal is to generate outrage, clicks, and attention. For that audience, it is the only way they will be reminded that people oppose their actions, and is in that respect the only way they will have any opportunity to try and figure out why they would conduct themself in that matter. Because of this event, Tash got several interviews on television to talk about animal rights to the general public, all of which went incredibly well. That's huge. Far more than the average activist ever gets the chance to do. Most of the viewers will go "she's crazy" sure, but if its that or nothing, I'd choose the former. She reached someone I'm sure. Likely more than a street activist one on one discussion generally does. Because of this event, a large population of people got to listen to a message they never otherwise would.

If you still don't think this a massive W for Veganism outreach, idk what to tell you. We don't just need a bunch of Earthling Ed's running around. Some people don't have empathy. Some people don't care about being logically consistent. Some people will never approach this topic in good faith. Sometimes you just have to tell those people to cut it the hell out and shut the hell up, and unlike almost any activist, she is willing to put her safety at risk in order to make a bafoon of the shameful restauranteur and make carnism appear as it is - inherently violent. Sometime shame is appropriate. Btw, the owner literally assaulted Tash after a second protest at his business. Seems shame-worthy to me.

I'd agree that it's not. What about honey makes you feel like you need it or otherwise that it is somehow different than eating other animal products? If you use it just because you like it, you could argue the same for any other animal product. I'm primarily concerned with their lack of consent, in some cases the clipping of queen bee wings & confinement to a fixed space, & resource theft. There's also the concerns of native bee populations being unable to compete with honey bees.

Go Vegan

May as well not considering willful complicity in their deaths is wrong.

Someday the meat eaters will realize this applies to animal oppressors as well, but not this day.

If I'm more specific, what Vegans care about is conscious experience. They don't care if something is alive or has some form of reactive biological intelligence. Its not a loose definition of killing that's the problem, it's the killing of conscious beings.

There is no scientific consensus as to the potential for consciousness in plants/trees. Almost nobody affirms that they are. You'll find generally that when we discuss consciousness we describe beings with brains, or if we get in to gray areas, beings that at least have some form of nervous system. Since there is some level of brain plasticity, I tend to take the position that consciousness is an emergent property found in those with a nervous system at bare minimum, but absolutely and especially those with brains. That said, there are particular areas of brains that if compromised will show patterns of lost consciousness, but I just don't affirm that those areas are entirely responsible.

So if plants and trees are not conscious, and they don't experience reality, and there is no subject, then there is no one to grant rights to. If we were talking about some random planet that had no conscious life on it, a planet that for some reason could never support conscious life but could support plant life, I would have no ethical quandary with a space fairing civilization taking all of those resources and leaving the planet with not but rock.

The need for residential housing complicates the ethics of forest habitat removal but not by that much if we consider what a vegan world looks like. Roughly 37.5% of the world's habitable land could be redistributed as that land currently is required for animal agriculture that otherwise wouldn't be. Roughly the size of North America and Brazil combined. You'd have loads of land that could be reforested but also some land that could be reused for housing purposes. As for current reality, I think there's a strong argument that group housing or apartment blocks would be far better for both people and the planet.

Yes earlier in the thread it was very mob like. That's me just placating I suppose. He has not been proven guilty and they're already starving him. Doubly wrong.

Nobody said the guy is entirely ethical ¯\(ツ)/¯

I don't think being forced to consume death/murder is the answer to him not being ethical with people's funds.

He is Vegan. Irrespective of how we feel about what he did, the failure to address his core ethical beliefs is completely unacceptable. If his belief was rooted in ideas of a higher being or afterlife, everyone would acknowledge how fucked up it is. Not that I'm planning on going to jail anytime soon, but if I could not be able to abide by that daily practice of my life it would be incredibly distressing. Unless he is doing it for environmental reasons (I don't know) he likely seeks total animal liberation, and you're going to force feed him stolen animal secretions? Coproducts of dead baby cows, blended up chicks, and beings bred into painful bodies? The alternative is malnutrition? I would highly consider Jainism or Sikhism on this fact alone. Fuck you if you think he should be forced to go against these ethical beliefs. It is 100% a human rights violation IMO.