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146

Two Irish citizens ordered to leave Germany over pro-Palestinian protests despite no convictions (www.irishtimes.com)

submitted 4 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

Not sure if that will happen. Usually you have to commit pretty serious crimes to be deported as a EU citizen. What this article leaves out... Other sources accuse these protesters of being masked and storming the university with clubs and axes, intimidating staff and destroying property. I'm not sure what happened, I wasn't there. Depending on how overexaggerated that axe thing is, it could warrant a deportation. Wearing an illegal t-shirt or insulting someone should not be a reason to get someone deported who lives and works here for some time already. But the justice system is now going to handle it.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 days ago (2 children)

deported as a EU citizen. What this article leaves out... Other sources accuse these protesters of being masked and storming the university with clubs and axes, intimidating staff and destroying property.

No. Other sources accuse some other protestors in this protest of doing these things.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Fwiw, if you're part of group of protesters that arrives with [masked faces], including some people with axes, and you plan to scare the shit out of uni staff, you probably approve of the axes too, no? (Granted, I wasn't there. But that was I understood the retelling of events in Tagesspiegel had of the event today.)

40 masked people stormed the presidium and threatened employees with axes, saws, crowbars and clubs. The attackers destroyed furniture, computers and photocopiers, and daubed slogans and the red Hamas triangle in the stairwell and on the façade. The FU filed criminal charges in five cases and spoke of damage to property worth more than 100,000 euros.

-- https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/a-13468543.html

Doesn't really make the deportation orders any better in my book, but the line "they were just protesting" seems false to me.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The claims of Uni staff being threatened came from a parliamentary inquiry of the racist Berlin CDU to the racist government of Berlin, lead by the völkisch-nationalist mayor Kai Wegner (There is German citizens and there is real Germans, who have German names). The parliamentary inquiry was initially reported on by the Axel-Springer outlet "B.Z.". Axel-Springer operates businesses who partake in selling stolen land in the Westbank and is extremely Zionist, including attacking in particular Jewish and LGBT activists who oppose Israels actions. Tagesspiegel for the most part has been heavily dramatizing and uncritically repeating claims by Berlins police and political government. In particular the radical Zionist journalist Sebastian Leber has been heavily involved in spreading Zionist propaganda in the Tagesspiegel.
The FU president Ziegler has been eager to get peaceful and non-interruptive protest camps violently removed by Police and he doubled down on cooperation with Israeli universities who are known to do research for and operate systems for the IDF such as the "Gospel" and "Daddys home" AI target selection systems.

Why am i saying all of this? Long-story short, there is a strong entanglement between racist, antisemitic, anti-LGBT political and media forces in Berlin, who are in strong support of Zionism and use the current situation in particular to expand their attacks on legal and civil institutions of human rights and international law, science, education, arts, freedom of opinion, freedom of protest, freedom of religion...

Until there has been a proper court proceeding, where legal proof of the claims of FU employees being threatened with tools or weapons is established, these claims should not be readily accepted as true. Specifically the people making these claims, and the people sensationalizing these claims have a strong ideological motivation to do so in order to legitimize the erosion of fundamentals of a democratic state of law that acts in accordance with civil and human rights and international law. These people cannot justify their motivations and behavior through rational arguments, so they rely on spreading sensationalized claims and propaganda lies.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Hey Saleh,

we had this in another post and why are you still spreading misinformation about this? The university itself posted about this on the same day as the attack. Without any involvement of an parliamentary inquiry.

https://www.fu-berlin.de/presse/informationen/fup/2024/fup_24_206-versuchte-besetzung/index.html

At least 40 people attempted to occupy the Presidential Building of Freie Universität Berlin on Thursday, October 17th at lunchtime. The attempted occupation was immediately broken up by the police. The people were extremely violent and physically attacked and verbally threatened employees. People were injured. Rooms were vandalized and slogans and Hamas triangles were sprayed on the walls of the historic building. Vandalism caused considerable damage to property throughout the building.

Employees reported that they were asked to leave their offices in English that was difficult to understand, under threat of violence. People who did not comply were physically attacked. Attackers tried to force open office doors that employees had locked from the inside for their own protection. The FU employees found it particularly worrying that they were unable to assess the intentions of the attackers who had entered the building.

So yeah, fuck those protestors.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

So the criminal president of FU Ziegler made allegations, which were happily taken on by the racist Berlin CDU, who like Ziegler, have a strong ideological conviction in embracing support for Israeli crimes and suppressing peaceful protests with violence, which then leads to escalation.

Neither of them is a trustworthy source on this. Until there is a proper court proceeding, where proper evidence is provided and evaluated by a court of law, these claims should not be assumed to be true or false. This is specifically because the people making these claims are evidently not neutral and created the conditions for a counter-escalation to happen, so it is reasonable to assume this counter-escalation and the narrative about it to be part of their strategy too.

Property damage is evident, but a very different category than people being threatened with weapons or dangerous tools. For this claim there needs to be proper court proceedings.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago

I'm not sure where to continue here. Why is the president "criminal"? Was he convicted in a court of law?

And I'm not really sure what your general point is. Yes, the state wants to get rid of those protesters and now we are getting a court decision on the issue. So where exactly is the issue?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 days ago (2 children)

And believe me this would make national news in Germany if they did. The depressing reality is that if you do as little as publicly suggesting Palestinians are human, you can get yourself in s lot of trouble in Germany. Authorities will claim you‘re an anti semite nazi who spreads hate speech for it. They are euphoric about the genocide while claiming it doesn‘t take place.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

if you do as little as publicly suggesting Palestinians are human, you can get yourself in s lot of trouble in Germany

Minor exaggeration there, don't you think? Otherwise, please find a source for that.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

Book Fair 2022: Slavoj Žižek received harsh criticism and was even being boo'd on stage by the mayor of Frankfurt for saying exactly that, even after he literally condemed Hamas. An Antisemitism representive then suggested what Žižek did was essentially hate speech.

April 2024: Germany imposed an entry ban on Greek's former financial minister Varoufakis for criticising Israel, labeling it, you guessed it, antisemitist hate speech.

There is more but those are two at the top of my head which you can google yourself if you can't read German or don't want to translate it. It is not an exaggeration to say humanizing the 'wrong' humans can get you in trouble in Germany and that's really depressing.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Well, Germany has a bit of a special relationship with Jews and Israel, since we killed a few million Jews some 80 years ago. There are special laws in place since after WW2. Spreading misinformation or hate speech concerning that will get you in a lot more trouble than in other countries. I mean other countries also shifted lately. I heard in the USA, the current government loves to take protests including for Palestine as an opportunity to oppress people. I'm not sure if Germany shifted or anything. This has always been a delicate topic. Usually, these protests have been handled kinda okay. With a few bad exceptions. Like when a protest turns violent, which this one seems to have.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Germany thinks it can right a wrong with another wrong here. That's what's happening.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 days ago

I don't think those municipality officials speak for Germany as a whole. I've discussed this on a different platform with some strange people... Generally speaking, we're fine. I've been to protests and they generally work out fine. Most protests for Palestine, too. Sometimes the police or government overstep. I think especially governments are well known for making mistakes. That's what we have a justice system and separation of powers for.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Deportation without due process? I doubt that is compatible with EU law.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I believe technically it's not a deportation. Their stay has been terminated and at this point they've just been asked to leave, not taken into prison. That seems to be an administrative act only. So no process before a judge/court. Objecting to that is the correct first step. The whole act smells like it's unlawful.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Must you formally object or is refusing to leave an acceptable form of objection?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago

Huh, we're talking about Germany here. Probably needs several forms, a fax machine ...