this post was submitted on 25 Mar 2025
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We live in ~~a society~~ an ecosphere.

No system but the ecosystem

What does that even mean?

Here's an aspect: https://www.radicalphilosophy.com/article/nature-in-the-limits-to-capital-and-vice-versa

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Many discussions people have started with me have come down to this (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 week ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/27369670

I know, not all omnis. But this is based on personal experience.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The most amusing/infuriating (depending on the day) about this for me is how shit most people are at communicating and experiencing things. They spend most of the day on autopilot and do everything off of vibes and feelings. Since that's not how my brain works I was somewhat forced to learn how to communicate and translate what I am thinking and feeling to something other people can understand and am therefore able to at a moments notice.

Talking to ND people can often feel like talking to children because they can't answer simple questions about why they think or feel something and just give vague vibe like answers. I'm not entirely convinced that ND people are better at communicating than someone on the spectrum (depending on where they fall on it of course).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

I mean, I don't think it's fair to say that anyone is better or worse based on their neurotype. ( Please correct me if you didn't mean that neurotypical communication is inferior!)

That's kind of my point (I'm OOP). Different modes of communication are equally valid, even if we don't understand them. It's easy to fall into this thinking of autists are better at communicating when you're autistic and have an easier time with other autists, but I don't think it's fair.

I wish I remembered where I read this, but I think there's even studies that neurodivergents (not even just autists) and neurotypicals each communicate very well among themselves, but start having trouble in a mixed group.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Sounds like some anthropocentrism to me. Maybe a sprinkling of good ole christian values? Ask them about abortion lol. That said im not a vegetarian, but I'm not morally justifying my diet. I'm just a hungry animal.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I’m not morally justifying my diet. I’m just a hungry animal.

Technically, you are. You're using a sort of naturalistic fallacy as moral justification.

The point of contention is this:

Are you justifying a need or are you justifying a desire or want?

Which begs the question: do you know your needs and do you know yourself enough to know your needs?

For carnivore animals, this is about needs.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

I like eating what I like to eat. And I eat it because I can. Feel free to interpret that how you like.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (2 children)

You're right on the money. There's no morally relevant trait that differentiates all humans from all non-human animals.

Please ignore if you don't want to answer, but if you don't mind me asking, have you considered giving up animal products? Because if so, I'm here for questions and advice about it :)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

I have, but I think its more that I dont like factory farms and industrial scale slaughter. We have a bunch off hens for eggs now, and i prefer to eat deer we hunt over store bought beef. I wish there was good fishing near by. I'd be doing that if I could.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Alright.

Are going against hunting deer? If so, then how would your control the population to prevent deforestation from overgrazing populations of wild roe deer destroying the economy? If not, then is it okay to eat that deer. If not, then what do you suppose doing with them?

If you're against using wool from animals which have developed into domesticated forms, like sheep, and couldn't manage without attendance from humans, then what should we do with those animals? Stop shearing them? Burn the sheared wool, just because? Or genocide all sheep? Or let them just suffer with the the wool, not shear them?

How is the pest control managed in the produce you eat, or do you have the ability to eat only vegetation that's been grown in hydroponic gardens which at most need to kill some bugs?

(I support vegan products and most of my diet is plant based roughly but I do buy venison, elk, reindeer etc around hunting season)

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Do you go into other communities for people who hold a certain belief to argue with them, or just vegan ones?

I don't know if it's actually necessary to fix our mistake by hunting deer. I'd have to research that. But why is it ok to eat them and not, say, a pet who has to be put to sleep? Like, I genuinely can't think of a reason.

And as with any farm animal, the problem disappears as soon as we stop breeding animal into existence that suffer under the kind of body weve bred them to have. Just like an overbred dog. Sheep suffer from their wool because we made them this way, not because theyre naturally like this. We just stop making them this way. As for the wool, you can look up how they go about in in animal sanctuaries.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

No answers.

Because full, veganism is an irrational philosophy.

I'm hardcore against industrial meat farming, support vegan products, but also eat meat when I can find morally sourced ones.

I don't "go into communities" Lemmy has a main feed.

You said you were open to questions and now don't even answer them.

"how the go about in animal sanctuaries"

I've worked at animal sanctuaries. I know.

You skipped both the questions, like all vegans always do.

Perhaps open your mind to the idea that your absolutist views might not be the only moral ones, and that yours can even get less moral when viewed through a larger lens.

I can defend my ideology. (Which again is against industrial Meat-farms and I mainly eat a plant based diet and zero dairy.) Can you say the same?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I said I'm open for questions to someone who wants to learn to eat more plant based stuff.

Going into a post and commenting is going into a community.

Which part of your question do you feel wasn't sufficiently addressed? I'll try to elaborate on my replies to them.

Edit: if you comment with yet another insult, I won't engage.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

So what do we do with deer?

Or is the meat to be discarded as "unholy"?

Should we genocide all sheep? Because unless you plan to do that, we're going to have to keep shearing them. And that wool is thus required for the animals welfare. It's extra.

Do we burn it as unholy?

Your absolutist ways don't work yet you refuse to accept alternatives. Kinda like the people who see eating meat as masculine and refuse to eat plant based products or change their diet

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

With things like eating an animal (non human or human) that dies anyway, it honestly depends on whether your ethics are strictly utiliterian or not. If you're strictly utiliterian, there's no reason not to eat a culled deer or a euthanized dog. All I'm asking for is consistency, and that's how I go about it, too: I wouldn't eat a deceased pet or relative, so I'm not eating that deer either. I'm also not personally experienced in animal populations, so I wouldn't feel comfortable buying that meat either way, since I don't have the skill to actually make sure it really would've died anyway without my demand for the product that is its body. That's just me though, it's a different story if you're more well versed in this!

What about my reply to your other question wasn't sufficient? I'd love to elaborate on that too if you want.

I typed this reply before seeing the end of your comment. Again, if you keep being insulting like this instead of genuinely discussing things, I might/will stop engaging.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

Good answer with the deer.

Culling them is necessary here, for ecology and humans.

Humans got rid of apex predators and trying to reintroduce wolves into population centres is honestly an idea that one vegan floated seriously, not understanding the implications.

Yeah I think I do have a consistent ideology.

My point about sheep is we can strive drive down farming, but unless we decide to kill the entire species, they have to rely on us, so they'll have to be kept on a farm or equivalent. We don't need to farm them, could actually treat them just as animals to be kept, and then use the wool.

Because the otherwise is deciding not to let them procreate anymore, which would lead to the extinction of the species. And if that is done on purpose, I believe it's called genocide. Or something even larger, when it's a whole species. Eidocide, someone has suggested online somewhere.

So all I'm asking for is consistency as well.

And yes, I am a utilitarian. Which is sort of a happy accident, because I also happen to like venison as well. I also eat horse when it's available, but it's kinda 5050 on whether the animal has really had a moral life. Does a rave horse have a moral life? Maybe if it's never ridden with a saddle, and enjoys running, maybe? And horses have evolved quite a lot since we domesticated them from wild horses, so arguably they may have evolved to endure us riding them, but the morality of riding is, well, questionable, I'd say.

So some homekept horse may have had a less moral life than a racehorse with amazing facilities and moral owners.

Anyway when they eventually die the meat is used and when I see some when in the shops, I may pick some up.

But I'm not as sure that it's moral as game. It's something I'd find interesting to discuss, but most vegans can't seem to dicuss the nuance, just defaulting to yelling shit like "carnist".

I'm sure horses have more moral lives than the cows where beef comes from.

I was explaining this ideology to the shop where I got my game from (elk, deer, venison), and I don't think the shopkeep quite heard or understood me that time, as the next thing they did was offer me veal. They had thought I'm just going through different animals or something, when I was actually just sourcing what I consider to be ethical meat. It's far more expensive than beef, and I'm not a well off dude. But my ideology calls for me to do that. (Also it being like 100x better than some fatty pork-beef mince doesn't hurt.)

Sorry I meant no offense I'm just very direct and it comes off as hostile. There is nuance tho.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Are you also autistic? :)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I have avoided getting diagnosed due to the low (is it?) probability that fascists come to power and want to make lists of people for obvious evil purposes, but I'd certainly call myself neurodivergent.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

Very understandable. I did a kinda first assessment test with a psychologist, and she said for a complete and official diagnosis I'd have to do further testing with a psychiatrist. While she was very certain I was autistic from the test and a long talk, she advised against an official diagnosis even just due to discrimination in the workplace and medical system. And that's without fascists in power.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It seems like there's just a subset of people who want to kill all others. What constitutes an "other" changes a little from time to time, though.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Said by people who have never paid attention to animals.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

As a fan of being outdoors, I find that there's a pretty significant number of animals minding their own business. Predators are in the minority, after all.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Maybe I'm blessed to have had enough interaction with animals to know they experience emotions just as we do.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

Yeah, maybe it's the experience that makes the empathy.