this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2024
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Discussion about the aussie.zone instance itself

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I'm making this post directly in response to the extremist moderation in this thread, though I came very close a little while ago to a similar post because of moderation here

Comments that have been removed on the grounds of "No bigotry" include:

There are no good guys in that conflict. Only innocent civilians.

Maybe provide examples? I see nothing that would prevent me from saying that with a straight face.

Gee, I don't know, I vaguely recall a (perhaps minor) news item happening on the 7th, something about a music festival? I may be misremembering though, since this very impartial news site has no mention of it whatsoever.

It's a terrorist organization vs terrorist state. The only good guys are the civilians dying on both sides.

Everyone who opposes genocide, colonialism, and terrorism are the good guys, so neither Israel or Hamas. But Hamas is not Palestine/Palestinians, the same way that Israel/Zionism is not Jewish/Judaism; no matter how much Israel, Hamas, the media, or military industrial complex tries to conflate them all. IMO Israel is more to blame than Hamas as they should know better given a) their history of persecution b) their significantly greater wealth and education, and c) their demographics — more than half of all Palestinians are technically children, below 18.

I don't know what could possibly be less "bigotry" than that last statement. Now, I side pretty much 100% with Palestine in the Palestinian genocide being committed by Israel, but it's not even remotely bigoted to suggest that maybe the killing of civilians, even if done in the name of a good cause, does not make the killers "the good guys" (even if they are "the better guys of the two bad guys").

And in the other thread, they removed comments like:

That's pathetic. That's a pathetic misunderstanding of geopolitics and the nature of modern intelligence infrastructure. You're still in the mindset of "Having SIGINT = bad guys". As if places like Russia, and North Korea would just be magical kingdoms of freedom and accountability if they just didn't have signals intelligence! That's stupid. What differentiates the west (much like what differentiates good media sources from bad) - is accountability, and oversight. Anyways I'll let you get back to your petty fears and misunderstanding the basic lay of the informational and geopolitical landscapes. Maybe if Trump magically wins the election Glenn Greenwald will spend Trump's time in office attacking the Democrats and defending Trump and Russia again. I'm sure you'd enjoy that. The crypto-rightwing are just like that. Aren't you. Semi-pro-authoritarians who don't understand what causes freedom, and think it's something about being a soldier of fortune for a foreign state, or something that comes from "the barrel of a gun". Idiots believing they're freedom fighters popping some imaginary info-bubble. You don't know how lucky you are, or how good you have it, or why... That's your problem, and your weakness.

which were critical of authoritarian states in a mildly impolite way for being violations of their "Be respectful" rule. Meanwhile they failed to remove (and in fact, the comments came directly from an admin) comments that are far more directly disrespectful to their interlocutor, like:

This is wrong on so many levels 😂 If you’re this propagandized, then I’m sure you don’t know what actually happened in and around Tiananmen Square, which by the way is not even censored in China like we’re always told.

Followed by a gish gallop of links.

And

Okay, stay confidently incorrect in the Five Eyes corporate media bubble then 👍

“I’m in this photo and I don’t like it.”

and the especially pathetic disrespectful comment consisting of nothing but:


The admins of that instance are pretty blatantly disregarding their own rules in order to push their agenda. If that shouldn't be grounds for defederation, I don't know what should.

edit: accidentally left a link out earlier

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[–] tux0r@feddit.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

a mildly impolite way

Just be polite.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 year ago

Tell that to the admins of ml.

[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

i’ve only been here a short while and i’ve seen multiple meta posts now from a variety of instances talking about blocking that instance and moving to different software like mbin so i think this is a shared view

eg. https://sh.itjust.works/post/27559887

[–] eureka@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
  1. I can't find any comments in that linked post 'talking about blocking that instance' or 'moving to different software'. Nor do I think a designated drama community on another instance is a good litmus test for opinions.

  2. The only post I've found talking about blocking that instance, apart from OP, is a troll post you made (on a post about the UN voting on the blockade of Cuba which almost the entire UN has consistently voted against every year for over 30 years [wikipedia])

[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Lemmy/comments/143njvy/lemmy_is_run_by_tankies_avoid_it/

this is from 10 months ago, this post i linked to was from a few hours ago, it seems to just be a constant drama among everyone, is it not? or is it just a coincidence?

Also i don’t care for the post i want to block the whole instance, friends of russia and china are no friends of mine

[–] eureka@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

it seems to just be a constant drama among everyone, is it not?

Correct, it is not. That isn't close to constant nor everyone.

i want to block the whole instance

See instructions from our admin here: https://aussie.zone/comment/13007067

[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Blaze@feddit.org 1 points 1 year ago

FYI, this only hides the lemmy.ml communities, not all content coming from lemmy.ml. More details on https://lemmy.ca/post/32209344

(Sorry, wanted to give an aussie.zone link, but nobody from your instance subscribed to that community: !newtolemmy@lemmy.ca )

[–] lodion@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Made some time at work, don't tell my boss...

Think of lemmy instances as countries: when you visit a country/instance you're expected to abide by their local rules, whatever they may be. And when users from other countries/instances interact with Australia/aussie.zone they're expected to behave in line with our rules.

Not agreeing with the population of a country/instance doesn't mean you can't visit it. If/When you visit, you can't expect them to adhere to your rules at home... or to apply their own rules consistently.. just like the real world.

Defederation of an instance will only be done when:

Legal- the instance is generating content that may raise legal concerns for Aussie Zone. For example porn.

Technical- the instance is generating content that may cause performance/security issues for Aussie Zone. For example large volumes of automated traffic or malicious traffic.

Trolls- an instance whose users predominantly interact in bad faith with communities outside of their instance.

I don't believe lemmy.ml meets any of these, their "quirky" politics are largely self contained on their own communities from what I've seen. If they're crashing aussie.zone communities and posting outside of our rules, please report them.

To address some comments in this thread (paraphrasing):

we should defederate instances with bad admins or admins heavily moderating alternative views to their own

So far as their actions do not trigger any of the defederation criteria noted above, they can do as they see fit (even if it does make hypocritical dickheads).

no incentive to create alternative communities
If there is no incentive, then it can't be a large enough issue to enough users.

pro-authoritarian bias
Given how simple it is for a user to block an instance for themself, I'd rather allow our users had the option to decide this for themselves. Some prefer to engage with people from an alternate perspective, for those that don't they can block the instance.

TLDR

Not defederating lemmy.ml at this point in time, if their user behaviour outside of their instance changes in future my stance may change too.

[–] Taleya@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago

it seems "defederate" has become the new default move whenever people encounter users that, well, Exist While Having Different Opinions To Them.

The only defensible one I've seen was hexbear because they're full on batshit "this has gotta be a russian psyop" insane and intent on abusing everyone else.

[–] eureka@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The admins of that instance are pretty blatantly disregarding their own rules in order to push their agenda. If that shouldn’t be grounds for defederation, I don’t know what should.

I personally don't think staff of a community or instance choosing how they administrate posts there is a solid grounds for defederation, nor do I think defederation is a useful response.

If you find their moderation and staff intolerable (and fwiw I also think some of those bans are poorly justified), I recommend you block those communities or their instance from your account. But I don't think blocking their users from contributing here and blocking us from contributing there is appropriate.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 year ago

The problem is that there's no incentive for anyone to create or use similar communities on other instances if the one on ML is currently the biggest. The more people defederate ML the better the chance that an AskLemmy or similar community can actually be successful on another instance. Somewhere that criticism of authoritarianism doesn't get you banned.

[–] Nath@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago

Feeling a bit conscious of the fact that I'm at work right now, and too busy to give this the diplomatic response it deserves. The short answer to this question is that we don't generally defederate anyone for anything they say/do inside their own instance. We do however happily support you in blocking them for yourself. Click on your username in the top-right, go to Settings and then Blocks. Under the Instance section, search for lemmy.ml and make sure you click on their name in the drop-down like this:


Do this and you will no longer see lemmy.ml content.

Disclosure: I subscribe to that community - and while I'm aware that the locals of lemmy.ml have quirky political leanings, that particular community is frequented by a lot of non-local members. Also, that post was always going to attract hardliners from all sides, wherever that question was asked.

[–] trk@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Eh, I disagree. I don't want to defederate from any instance except blatantly illegal ones or immoral ones.

The admins of an instance being dickheads doesn't make every user of that instance a dickhead. And if you go around defederating every instance you don't agree with a minority on, we're gonna end up with no friends at all. It will also drive people away from becoming Lamingtons if they see defederation drama going on - why join any instance if you may end up on a deserted island?

Side note: here's a nice bit of light reading on tolerating intolerance. And not tolerating tolerance. And vice versa:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Side note: here’s a nice bit of light reading on tolerating intolerance. And not tolerating tolerance.

Right, which is exactly why they should be defederated. They don't even follow their own rules and go out of their way to be arseholes to everyone, as long as they perceive it to be something that pushes their agenda.

[–] trk@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They

... being the very small minority?

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They being the authoritarians.

[–] trk@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're suggesting defederating the 5th largest Lemmy instance (~52k users, ~2.2k active) over the actions of a single digit number of people. I think you also suggested defederating hexbear (the next biggest at ~27k users, ~1.8k active) in the past.

Lemmy aint big enough to be wiping out majority shares when you don't like how a very small number of people act.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The admins of the instance. It's ridiculous to pretend the behaviour of the admins of an instance shouldn't be a serious consideration in the question of how to treat with that instance.

[–] eureka@aussie.zone -1 points 1 year ago

The thousands of users necessarily affected are far more important than up to five admins being hypocrites and jerks when it comes to specific political topics.

Ultimately I think aussie.zone users should be the most serious consideration, and as admin Nath said, users here who disapprove can easily block their admins or their instance at will.