this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2026
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Batman vs The Trolley Problem [Existential Comics] (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 day ago by cannedtuna@lemmy.world to c/comicstrips@lemmy.world
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Existential Comics | Website

Alt Text“At the heart of Batman’s being, like all theater kids, is a boundless narcissism that eats away at his core.”

ExplanationMany versions of Batman have a strict “no killing” rule, which is exactly the kind of intuition the Trolley Problem is attacking. Why is it different to actively kill someone vs passively letting five people die? In particular, Batman’s version seems to be a sort of “honor code”, which something close to a moral system, but it is entirely inward looking. In other words, fulfilling the honor system doesn’t do good for the world, it elevates the status of the honorable man. In a sense it’s the worst possible way to answer a moral question, “I want to kill the five people because I personally would lose something (my honor)”. Also its pretty showy to dress up as a bat. One might even call him a weirdo.

Transcript8 Panel Comic

Panel 1: The Riddler stands at the lever explaining his setup of the classic Trolley Problem. Tied to one track are 5 people, and tied to the diverted track is 1 person. A trolley is prepared to mow down the 5 people unless the lever is pulled, diverting it to the path with one person.

Riddler: Alright Batman riddle me this. A trolley is moving down this track and is going to kill five people, but if you switch tracks it will only kill one, do you pull the lever?

Panel 2: Batman shakes his fist at the Riddler

Batman: Curse your implausible games, Riddler!

Panel 3: Batman hesitates in front of the lever, his hand shaking.

Batman: The right thing to do is save five people, but I have sworn to my code of ethics to never kill!

Panel 4: The Riddler exults in the devious dilemma delaying Batman’s decision.

Batman: I cannot do it! I cannot be the one to kill directly!

Riddler: Looks like the Batman has failed Philosophy 101! HAHAHAHAHA!

Panel 5: Batman watches as the trolley splatters 5 people across the track as the Riddler continues in his exultations.

Panel 6: Batman now sits in his Batcave as his Alfred arrives with his dinner on a covered tray.

Alfred: But what I don’t understand Sir, is how upholding your moral code can have more value than their lives?

Panel 7: Batman smoking a cigarette puts on his best grizzled and hard boiled face.

Batman: Because I’m a narcissist, Alfred. I value my own ego above everything, and I didn’t want to lose the “no killing” thing, because I like bragging about it. That’s all.

Panel 8: Alfred is shocked at Batman’s response.

Alfred: Really, I never thought so…

Batman: I dress up as a bat to fight crime. Of course I’m a narcissist. Your kind of a moron, Alfred, honestly.

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[–] lastlybutfirstly@lemmy.world 6 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Batman is a billionaire who dresses up in black leather, drives around in a fancy car, and beats the shit out of impoverished purse snatchers. He's a little more than a narcissist.

[–] myyass@lemmy.world 4 points 8 hours ago

It's his personal therapy time. I used to like the idea when I was a kid but growing up it really showed the flaws.

[–] Yerbouti@sh.itjust.works 5 points 10 hours ago

What if Bruce Wayne had invested all his money to create social services and help people with mental issues, therefor preventing the joker from becoming a psychopath?

[–] Snowclone@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago

it's not Batman's fault a serial killer isn't given the death penalty, or somehow kept in prison.

[–] Tattorack@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago (10 children)

Jason Todd was right about Batman and the Joker. For the graveyards that Joker has filled, and his tendency to keep escaping, Joker should just fucking die.

Problem is, Todd didn't do it. Instead he tried proving a point to Wayne and got his ass kicked.

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 5 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

Todd didn't do it. Instead he tried proving a point to Wayne and got his ass kicked.

Was that the storyline where the Joker brainwashed him or was that a different Robin?

[–] Stolas@lemmy.ca 9 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

Depends on the timeline. There is one comic series where Jason does actually kill Joker.

But what most people tend to think of is Under the Red Hood from 2010, where Jason is kidnapped and beaten by the Joker in the beginning before supposedly murdered. He survives in secret, returns as the Red Hood, and at a confrontation with Batman discusses how he's upset that Joker could kill him and that Bruce refuses to kill the Joker in return.

It's a common theme. In another timeline one iteration of Selina leaves Bruce because he was willing to risk their lives to save the Riddler despite how he was entirely responsible for the situation that got himself killed.

You know who does kill Joker in a lot of timelines though? Superman. He usually ends up going a bit authoritarian afterwards but Bruce will even admit in some of those situations that Joker's death is necessary.

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 5 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

You know who does kill Joker in a lot of timelines though? Superman. He usually ends up going a bit authoritarian afterwards

I really liked the Injustice arc

[–] Stolas@lemmy.ca 4 points 20 hours ago

Injustice was really solid as long as you focus on the main cast. I do think a lot of people were disappointed with how Damian was handled.

There's also the Justice Lords, where Batman reluctantly complies with Superman's regime and where Superman's preferred method of punishment is lobotomizing villains.

[–] Tattorack@lemmy.world 4 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

That was Tim Drake, Robin #3.

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 2 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

What did Todd do in the story you mentioned?

[–] Tattorack@lemmy.world 8 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

Jason Todd got killed by the Joker by way of repeated contact with a crowbar and a close encounter with some explosives.

Ras Al Guhl for some reason decided to revive him in the Lazarus Pit. It didn't go so well as Jason's mind was a little broken at first and he ran off.

Some years go by and he eventually learns Joker is still alive, still killing people, and Batman Just keeps throwing him in Arkham.

So, Jason creates a plot to get the attention of both the Joker and Batman by taking up Joker's old persona; The Red Hood. Joker is going to get very intrigued by someone masquerading as something from his past, and Batman will get involved because he's Batman.

The end goal was to force Batman in a situation where he'd be forced to kill the Joker. A situation where either Batman kills the Joker, or he does it himself.

Batman of course ends up defending the Joker and saving him from Jason.

Edit: writing this entirely from memory, so there might be some bent details.

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[–] cannedtuna@lemmy.world 63 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Superman wouldn’t have this problem

I think this problem fits really well for Batman. How many times has Batman maimed or injured dozens on dozens of henchmen, but refuses to kill Joker, just to satisfy his personal code?

[–] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 3 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

superman killed joker in a movie i believed

[–] TheTechnician27@lemmy.world 43 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

but refuses to kill Joker, just to satisfy his personal code?

I'm not big into Batman, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Batman's whole deal isn't "I can't kill because it's always inherently wrong", but that he's afraid he'll completely lose control if he crosses that line and become even more dangerous than the people he holds himself back from killing.

[–] cannedtuna@lemmy.world 34 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Sure, he doesn’t act as judge, jury, and executioner (except in some dark spins), but he also hands out serious life long debilitating injuries like candy to henchmen, because they’re just henchmen.

[–] KoboldCoterie@pawb.social 25 points 1 day ago (4 children)

I wonder how many of them die 'off camera', too. Head injuries are no joke, and he has no qualms about administering blows to the head. I bet he's killed plenty even if he doesn't acknowledge it.

[–] kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz 6 points 1 day ago

People can easily die from a single punch to the face, so the henchmen kill count would be significant.

[–] GraniteM@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago

Wayne Enterprises has a very efficient private ambulance fleet to deal with the surprisingly-frequent head traumas that occur around Gotham City. It's a free service paid for by the Martha Wayne Foundation.

[–] OfCourseNot@fedia.io 9 points 1 day ago (2 children)

That real world logic just doesn't apply in most fiction settings. In movies blows to the head are not dangerous at all, and they are administered lightly even to friends and family when there's a need to take them out momentarily, with consequences not worse than a couple-pint hangover.

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[–] Ghoelian@piefed.social 13 points 1 day ago

There's no way anyone actually survived those takedowns in the Arkham games. You can always see they still have a heart rate, but surely they're at least in a coma or fully paralysed.

[–] aksdb@lemmy.world 3 points 21 hours ago

That’s generally a trope in far too many action movies. The protagonist kills countless henchmen until he has the bad guy boss at gun point and suddenly discovers morals and “can’t do it”.

[–] mushroommunk@lemmy.today 25 points 1 day ago (11 children)

I've seen a lot of arguments about this and information but I still don't know if I buy the premise that pulling the lever makes you the killer of the one which this hinges on entirely. Riddler is already the killer, you just have reduce the harm by steering him to kill the one instead of the five (assuming Batman didn't have a gadget that could have saved everyone blah blah blah).

I keep meaning to dig into analysis of the trolley problem using different ethical frameworks. One of these days.

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[–] mycodesucks@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

The extreme of this is Cheng Xin from "Death's End".

"I will sacrifice everything that exists to protect the purity of my conscience. Even betray people doing exactly what I told them acting under my explicit instructions."

[–] impairedimperator@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

That was not what happened at all. Cheng Xin had no ability to actually save anyone, her choice was to kill all the other guys as well, while also further guaranteeing the extinction of humanity. That's MAD theory, not trolley problem. If anything, humanity fucked up by electing someone who did not project enough menace for MAD theory to work: the whole point of MAD theory is the threat of response, the response itself doesn't actually matter.

That's one thing I found very interesting. Luo Ji's spell was no different from Ray Diaz's plan with Mercury. Same exact solution, except instead of directly offing humanity by human action, he was simply calling out to the predators he knew would come along and off humanity.

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[–] ChristerMLB@piefed.social 10 points 1 day ago

Hot take: the instinct to not pull the lever is the entire basis for modern right-libertarianism.

For those who don't know: the idea is that active coercion is bad and unjust, while passively allowing social structures to be coercive is not (or at least isn't relevant to politics). In fact, "unjust" can not be an emergent property of a society - per definition! A society where no individual transactions are coercive, will always be a just society.

The only way I can make sense of that, is to point to that instinct as the only relevant moral intuition.

[–] Zensate@lemmy.world 0 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

If an evil person wants to force you to make a choice, make them take full responsibility by not choosing anything.

Since it was forced on you, it's an artificial decision. If the game is wrong the right thing is to not play.

[–] winkly@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago (2 children)

The real batman would’ve anticipated this and had a plan to save all the people, and arrest the riddler. Psh

[–] Baggie@lemmy.zip 2 points 20 hours ago

This is kind of the reason I don't like the trolley problem. I understand the reason that it's presented as a choice of two options, but it feels so contrived and so limiting to have other answers as invalid. Thinking can be so multidimensional and crushing it into a binary limits critical thinking.

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[–] palordrolap@fedia.io 10 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Can a narcissist admit to being a narcissist? As in, wouldn't their brain simply prevent them from being able to understand the notion let alone say it.

Related point: Once a therapist asked me if I was a perfectionist and my brain locked up. I have perfectionist tendencies. Perfectionism is generally considered a negative trait. Perfectionism thus prevented me from admitting perfectionist tendencies, but I was required by perfectionism to answer the question perfectly. segfault in brain (core dumped).

[–] imadethis@fedinsfw.app 3 points 23 hours ago

There's been someone around here claiming to be a narcissist and acting super offended when anyone says anything negative about narcissists lately, so take that as a possible yes.

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