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German car industry warns of job collapse unless ‘bold decisions’ made to address Chinese threat (www.theguardian.com)
submitted 5 days ago by schizoidman@lemmy.zip to c/world@lemmy.world
45 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Volkswagen is trying to implement a comprehensive cost-cutting programme with up to 100,000 job losses, double the amount previously planned, by 2030 and the potential contraction or closure of several plants.

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[–] stumu415@lemmy.zip 14 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Volkswagen sales in China itself dropped 36% because they don't offer competitive EV's compared to local EV's. The quality and innovation of Chinese EV's is well ahead of what European manufacturers can offer.

Even what were regarded as luxury brands like BMW and Mercedes have lost more than 30% sales.

It has nothing to do with the Chinese threat but all do to with lack of innovation and investment in new technologies by both European and especially US car manufacturers.

https://autofreak.com/vw-bmw-mercedes-china-sales-collapse-q2/

[–] rabber@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Could start by making good cars again. Bmw couldn't get any worse at this point

[–] rwrwefwef@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

No one left to buy them. Since they're expensive locally, they used to export them to the Chinese. But China has its own industry now.

[–] rabber@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

They could make cars that last 30 years again like in the 80s and people would buy them at extreme premium

The only car worth buying from Germany is porsche and they sell just fine. Because they last and make what people want

[–] Tolc@lemmy.world 17 points 4 days ago

free market advocates become anti free market when china comes into play

[–] robomuffin79@lemmy.world 47 points 5 days ago (2 children)

But this is capitalism. If German manufacturers can’t compete, they should shut down. Survival of the fittest and free-markets etc etc. there will be job losses but the German people should ask their leaders why that happened

[–] b161@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Exactly. They insisted China become capitalist then complain when they do capitalism.

[–] timbuck2themoon@sh.itjust.works 11 points 5 days ago

Article doesn't really point to Chinese vehicles being the primary reason though- it's that demand is down for cars in Europe.

That said, it's not really free market capitalist anyway for China to heavily subsidize EV production.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children)

A fair argument can be made that the Chinese government considers EV an imperative and interferes and subsidizes, so it's not fully free market. Thus any country with industry competing with China needs to decide if they care and if they care, how to respond to advantage conferred by China government policies. Whether that's similar incentives for their domestic industry and/or tariffs to try to level the playing field.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

That's only a "fair" argument to make if one assumes that orthodox neoliberal policies such as the EU's ban on state aid are somehow the universal ethical norm. Will, they aren't.

If we made neoliberalism our dogma and the Chinese are outcompeting us maybe our dogma is fucking wrong.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

There's a reason I explicitly mentioned state aid as an option. So it's a fair argument because currently they are disadvantaged. Advocating for equivalent state aid wild be on the table

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I reject the framing. It is us Europeans that chose to be "disadvantaged" because we made the political choice to trust in the mumbo jumbo of neoliberal economics, because we thought we were going to be "advantaged" by the invisible hand of the market gods. We made a bad policy choice. Instead of calling it a "disadvantage", our political institutions should do their own self-criticism.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Ok, I find this very bizarre. You lament that neoliberal economics is bad but should not be considered disadvantaged?

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 days ago

I guess we are reading the word "disadvantage" slightly differently. You, I suspect, use it purely descriptively. I am interpreting it normatively (disadvantage viz. the proper rules). I am not pushing back on the descriptive bit. I am pushing back on what I consider to be normative baggage smuggled in by the framing. Aka maybe I'm reading too much in a word.

[–] kossa@feddit.org 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Volkswagen was a state funded company until the sixties ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

New factories, battery research and stuff like that are heavily subsidized for German car makers as well.

Maybe China is subsidizing more, but maybe that only speaks for sound economic decisions in China, like

A. they have the money, apparently

B. they subsidize future technologies instead of fabulating about e-fuels and whatnot.

[–] madnificent@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Volkswagen gets a lot of bad rep but as I understand it, it's not a horrible company. They have a very strong worker union. To my understanding they can't close a factory in Germany without a union's approval. That in itself is a huge handicap over BYD where workers get far fewer rights.

Volkswagen used to be one of the largest exporters from the EU. If I were a liberal foreign entity then I'd love for some dirt to stick to that. They have continued to focus on keeping their German workforce employed rather than producing everything overseas though they were proud to announce that they could do a full car development and production cycle in China a few years back so things do change.

Not that I care too much for the brand but I find it very odd how Volkswagen is getting so much hate.

If we want a closer apples to apples comparison, we should at least demand that our imports have been produced under the same environmental and workplace standards as we have here or better.

[–] kossa@feddit.org 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

it's not a horrible company

😅. It was literally started by Hitler himself.

"But that was a long time ago"...yeah, well. Then give BYD some ~50ish years, by then BYD might be as righteous as Volkswagen is now...cough Dieselgate, cough.

[–] madnificent@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Cfr Hitler, sure. But either we should have slashed it back then or we should accept it as it is. It was nearly disbanded but the British though it was better to keep a workers' factory (I should look it up though).

Perhaps it's ok to look at the now. They are to my understanding one of the most worker-centered companies of their scale. Certainly not something for libertarians to like. BYD can improve worker conditions. That would be great and I'm all for that. I also like that they brought the price of BEVs down. I do believe that if we want to raise standards as humanity in a global setting, that we should demand products entering the market to have followed those standards. Like we already do with safety standards. That makes it interesting for regions to raise the bar also.

For dieselgate I was also very 🤢 about that and did not care too much for the brand. Yet later many other makes were found to do the same tricks but VW somehow got singled out. I still don't know why, they were first to be discovered but perhaps there's more to it?

I'm glad the scandal got discovered. It pushed BEV forward. We should do the very best we can to stop using oil, ideally in a fair and open world.

[–] YouTalkinToMe@lemmy.wtf 21 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

German cars have become the same plastic crap with the same spying software, but still at double the price.

I would happily buy a 2010 level German car if they would still make it.

[–] rwrwefwef@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago

It doesn't even mean anything to drive an Audi or BMW anymore. A Hyundai or Chinese brand can give you the same functionality at an equal or cheaper cost. Their cars don't even stand out anymore due to their SUV focus. It's hard for a luxury brand to recover its image once it loses its lustre.

[–] elucubra@sopuli.xyz 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I drive a 1999 Skoda Octavia, VAG, with the 1.9 TDI, with the mechanical pump. The thing, with proper maintenance, is ultra reliable. Doesn't leak or burn oil. It hasn't had a major repair in 27 years/400.000 km, just consumables, like a clutch, belts, a starter motor, stuff like that.

Two people I know that have bought VAG cars the last 5 years are constantly bitching about their cars.

Engineering is not the problem here, it's management making engineering decisions.

The Chinese make generational planning. Western make quarterly decisions to appeal to speculators, not investors.

Western car makers, and Japanese/Koreans, definitely have the know how to make good value EVs, and some do (see Renault and Hyundai). If western and free market oriented Asian makers made long term investment and decisions they would compete just fine.

[–] YouTalkinToMe@lemmy.wtf 1 points 3 days ago

It started to become visible mid 00s. My Audi A4 was a great car mechanically - but it had to go for 'repairs' at least two times a year. Not because something was really broke - but because yet another sensor was malfunctioning. Massive costs, not for real repairs, but for mechanics hours figuring out which sensor was the culprit this time. Not one time there was a real mechanical problem.

[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 12 points 4 days ago (2 children)

How about the car industry making bold moves into EV production instead? They have fought EVs tooth and nail, and lobbied to retain the fossile fuel market forever.

[–] OrteilGenou@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas

[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

Exactly. And now bail us out, or else!

[–] Diurnambule@jlai.lu 2 points 3 days ago

They trie dto make enormous EV car and nobody buy them. They didn't try to make affordable cars. Because this would impact the economy of leech we have in Europe.

[–] rwrwefwef@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago

Volkswagen is trying to implement a comprehensive cost-cutting programme with up to 100,000 job losses, double the amount previously planned, by 2030 and the potential contraction or closure of several plants.

There's no solution to this. Either make cars people want to buy or GTFO. Can't have jobs for an unwanted industry.

[–] Zahtu@feddit.org 32 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

its not that a certain minister of economy has called them out on their wrong course 5 years ago. But he was shut down as fearmongering and pushing a political agenda.

[–] WanderingThoughts@europe.pub 12 points 5 days ago

Folks were saying this when Tesla released model S, and did a reasonable job on the timeline. That's 14 years ago. But those were tree hugging fanatics who don't understand the importance of short term stock prices.

[–] qevlarr@lemmy.world 10 points 4 days ago

The threat is your disinterest in battery, charging and EV technology?

[–] Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone 22 points 5 days ago

Who could have seen this comming...corruption catching up... Who could have seen it coming that bribing politicians to allow them producing their product, that the people dont want anymore, wouldnt result in people wanting their product!!? Truely mind boggeling /s

[–] ms_lane@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago (3 children)

Euro cars are known to be finicky and when something goes wrong it's also always a write off unless it's under warranty.

Have they tried making cars that don't break after 3-5 years again?

[–] NoForwardslashS@sopuli.xyz 10 points 5 days ago

Best I can do is put cameras all over it and track everything that happens inside and out of the car "for your safety".

[–] OhmeHose@feddit.org 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I mean, most American models come broken from the factory...

[–] redsand@infosec.pub 2 points 4 days ago

🇯🇵 America is only worth talking about for trucks. Japan, China and sometimes even Korea do normal cars better

[–] GreenBeard@lemmy.ca -2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

That would break them. Building cars that last means less demand for the next new car. Planned obsolescence is the only way to make sure the next round of vehicles has a market, regardless of whether its a significant enough improvement to justify the cost.

[–] modernangel@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Doesn't sound quite right to me - isn't Toyota a top brand globally, and doing just fine building cars engineered to last hundreds of thousands of miles? Somehow there's plenty of market for their cars year after year.

[–] GreenBeard@lemmy.ca 0 points 5 days ago

Different business model. Toyota has the Lexus brand, but they rest most of their business model on the shrinking mass market. It works great... when there's a significant amount of money in the low- to mid-tier markets. Volkswagen group, Mercedes, etc. target upper-mid to luxury/sport markets. Their target market is people with money who want status symbols, not just tools. It has to run flawless, while it runs, but it doesn't have to run forever because it's just as much a fashion accessory as it is for transportation; and fashion trends need regular refreshes.

If you target that market with a super-reliable product, you get an Instant Pot. The original models were designed to be damn near bullet proof and last forever. People will take those things to the grave with them, but once everyone who would consider them had one?... the bottom fell out of the market and they didn't diversify into other appliances in time to make up for the lost revenue from their primary line of business. Fell into chapter 11 and got snapped up by a bigger fish. The new ones suck so bad... but it keeps people replacing them.

Line go up.

[–] panthera_@lemmy.today 1 points 5 days ago (2 children)

China is not the threat since Germany can always impose tariffs. As the article points out, benefits to workers are too high. Germany must explore other industries besides car manufacturing. This is where it's important for Germany to encourage immigrants with talent to study and work there. The AfD will exploit the warnings of job collapse to gain power. Hitler rose to power when the democratic Weimar Republic couldn't control inflation.

[–] fisch@lemmy.world 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Germany must explore other industries besides car manufacturing.

This! Our industry is far too dependent on the car market. Car ownership is going down and people don't need to buy new cars all the time. The market is saturated. When I look around, everybody is driving a relatively new car that won't have to be replaced for years. It's just not a growth industry - and by the love of god, it shouldn't be one.

[–] panthera_@lemmy.today 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Germany could explore other ways of making money such as tourism and film making. Encouraging foreign students to study in Germany would bring tuition money.

[–] fisch@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Or simply other technologies. Instead of cars, heat pumps and ACs, both in high demand. Electrolysers for converting excess renewable energy into H2. Electric bikes. Electronic chips. Drones. Whatever.

[–] setsubyou@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Tariffs won’t help because while they’re losing across the board, the most important market for VW, and also the one with the most drastic losses, is not Germany but China. They bet a lot on expansion into China and once reached ~20% market share there, but that has since dropped to half. For BEV specifically it’s abysmal, so the outlook is also bad: BEV has rapidly risen to nearly 60% of the Chinese retail market but VW’s share is in the low single digits.

[–] panthera_@lemmy.today 1 points 4 days ago

Good point.