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cross-posted from: https://discuss.online/post/41813187
As a lifelong member of all religions and non-religions, that's not a problem for me.
especially if the evangelicals think gods, and angels are "men" and not genderless divine beings.
It might be an unpopular opinion, but a lot of queer folk are as clueless about Christianity (and religion more broadly) as religious people are about transgenderism (and LGBT more broadly).
Christianity, and other religions, are considerably more complex than people who read nothing about them think. Just like trans people make a lot more sense when you read about it at least a little bit. Both sides are guilty of being incredibly ignorant and uninformed.
That said, however, only one of those sides is actively pursuing removal of the other one from existence. So there's that.
Also, remember that the Church has little to do with the religion itself. Hell, the Church is literally the people who crucified Jesus. It doesn't get more ironic than that. The Church fulfills the same function for religion as the government does for society. You can fill in the rest yourself.
"Actually the books say this and not that" has zero relevance to what people actually do to others, so queer people are absolutely in the right to be wary of religious people, because religious people are those most likely to harass them, even if it means they didn't read their own book. That's not ignorance on the part of queer people, that's doubly on the part of religious people who are also ignorant about what queer people might do to them.
I can agree with that, but I feel like it's a different issue than the one I brought up.
It absolutely makes sense for queer people to be wary of religious people. Regardless of specific circumstances - chances are they're not going to be besties. This part is fairly clear.
I was just referring to the debates, who is right, arguments used, and so on. This may not matter to many people, and it's alright. I just like to look at motivations and reasons.
Also, no offence, but the quote "Actually the books say this and not that" is, actually, a near perfect example of the ignorance I mentioned. Unless satirical, which it may very well be. I can't always tell.
Also, no offence, but the quote "Actually the books say this and not that" is, actually, a near perfect example of the ignorance I mentioned.
That's my point. The people who are ignorant of what those books say are the religious people, not the queer people who are targeted. You can easily find atheists who know a lot more about the Bible than religious people, often because religious people will force atheists to debate what the books say, when they themselves don't know what their book says, and atheists end up having to do all the research to prove them wrong. It's the old joke "how do you become an atheist? By reading the Bible."
Not to mention that in the first place, queer people and atheists not knowing what the Bible says is completely fine, they're not at fault of anything, it's not their job to know and educate religious people. It doesn't matter to them what it says - only that religious people persecute them by claiming their book tells them to.
Apologetic nonsense.
Do better.
It's not apologetic. I'm not trying to make excuses for or defend either side. Not my job, don't care.
I'm just explaining something most people don't get, as someone who both supports trans rights, and has read the Bible, as well as studied theology. Unfortunately not in uni, because my local Church wouldn't let me (yes, it does have that kind of power thanks to insane pro-Church laws).
The vast majority of people are informed about/educated in either religion or the LGBT movement. Almost never in both. You don't have to be a genius to see that this is problematic. It leads to a lot of misunderstandings and pointless, endless arguments. This is the most basic shit you learn in your first semester of any humanities major.
The point I'm trying to nail down is: both sides are calling each other stupid and ignorant, among others. Both sides are guilty of being stupid and ignorant. Especially ignorant. You can't expect someone to listen to you without listening to them as well. Again - the most basic stuff ever.
Of course, in the case of religious zealots vs queer people, the two sides aren't equally at fault. Queer people just want to live their lives in peace, and that's not even up for debate. However, when they start criticizing religions - they're almost always plain wrong. Just like religious people are almost always wrong about gays, transgenders, and so on.
If you really feel the need to argue with people and act like you're intellectually superior - educate yourself first. Otherwise you look like a moron, regardless of which side you're on.
Just in case you haven't been called an idiot recently:
You're an idiot.
Don't breed.
^(Persecution)^
Theres a catholic weirdo in the comments of the crosspost that so perfectly exemplifies this meme. Yelling about us living in sin but my gosh the outrage when you imply the church is the largest pedophilia coverup in history...
edit:
ahem
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN (and all the rest of you delightful folks, folx and fucks), Here for an infinitely entertaining GRAND ENCORE PERFORMANCE, straight off their debut in c/athiesm, A REAL, LIVE, UNIRONIC TRADCATH!
Watch in amazement as they leap from the lemmy diving board, immediately plunging in way over their own head as they argue everything from morality to particle physics in a sad attempt to rationalize their own faith!
Lets give them all a BIG round of applause folks, as we wait in eager anticipation of what might they think up next!
Yelling about us living in sin but my gosh the outrage when you imply the church is the largest pedophilia coverup in history...
To be fair, it was the largest until capitalism and the epstein class came. The Church has been taking some Ls since then.
im not yelling
thats because it isnt
Except it is? Wanna enlighten us about what the church does when it finds out a priest or other clergy men is found to be a pedophile? They certainly aren't turning them into the police.
they go to jail in the Vatican itself or Italy
30-35 years is the max sentence in the Vatican tho, as life imprisonment was banned by Pope Francis
In January 2024, a Vatican Court of Appeals handed down the first-ever prison sentence for sexual abuse perpetrated on Vatican sovereign territory.
Less than three years for this first ever case…
perpetrated on vatican territory
I understand they only have jurisdiction in the Vatican, but your comment made it sound like it’s a more common thing than a one off occurrence.
Personally, I find it pretty telling that the church didn’t take the abuse seriously until they started bleeding followers, affecting their tithes.
the Church charges you? I think it heavily depends on your diocese or area but its voluntarily and doesnt literally have to be 10% of your income
Nobody said it wasn't voluntary, just that it was impacted by the public's understandable disgust over the rampant pedophilia the church enabled - and once that happened, suddenly the church is mustering its response.
Also quit dodging the question - why present it like it's a common thing for the church to have done, when it's happened once?
Shit dude, we can lie too if that's the game you want to play lol
Oo! Oo! Ask them if any priests have gone to jail in the vatican for it! They totally dipped on answering that one the last time they trotted out this tired act, maybe they've figured it out since then! I know there's been one, but has there been two??
As far as I can tell, just one, Father Gabriel Martinelli. They probably didn’t answer because the guy got less than three years
You mean it's absolutely devastating to their argument and they're just ignoring it? A catholic?!? No, they would never!
and in other countries, they are usually handed over, or sent to another country to be arrested
No they’re not.
When the church finds out about it and has any choice in the matter, they ship the offending priest to some other church to keep reoffending.
In fact we still don’t know the full names of everyone they know about.
The only time a priest has been prosecuted is when secular institutions have forced the matter. You know. By arresting them and sending them to trial.
The Vatican has called the content of the allegations “criminal and morally reprehensible,” adding, “those acts were betrayals of trust that robbed survivors of their dignity and their faith. The church must learn hard lessons from its past, and there should be accountability for both abusers and those who permitted abuse to occur.” Pope Francis has also issued a striking personal apology, saying “we showed no care for the little ones.”
most of these cases are from the US, and the entirety of the bishops in the US dioceses and archdioceses and the vice president and president of the USCCB were summoned to Rome for this
the Protestant reformation in the 1600s was in part backlash to the commoness of priests breaking their vows, with women, each other and with young boys. It was so rampant they considered celibacy to be the cause of the corruption and by removing its requirement hoped to prevent the more immoral (for the time) of these acts (Sodomy and pedophilia)
The abuses and cover ups up the last century arent a new thing, theyre just the latest in a long history and the onky one the church hopes people still remember.
Asking the Vatican about Catholic sexual allegations is like asking Trump about Epstein's child trafficking
Apologizing for covering up the biggest pedophilia ring in history doesn't make the cover-up or the pedophilia ring non-existent, they're just admitting that they did in fact cover it up.
most of these cases are from the US, and the entirety of the bishops in the US dioceses and archdioceses and the vice president and president of the USCCB were summoned to Rome for this
This feels like when a cop is put on paid suspension after shooting someone. They were summoned?!? Oh man, I hope they made it out alive.
Why is it even relevant that most cases happened in the US? The Church certainly didn’t help with rampant sexual abuse in the Canadian Residential schools. They didn’t do anything to stop unwed women from forced labor and non consensual adoptions in Ireland. When one of my loved ones was assaulted by the principal of the catholic high school she worked at, she told the diocese. Their response was to send everyone, including the victim, to sexual harassment training rather than fire the creep. That was less than 20 years ago.
You don't need to be religious to be mentally ill, you can be both or neither. Same with being gay, same with being trans. Idk if being trans by itself constitutes "mental illness" but I'm not about to jump into that rabbit hole.
But I do know you can't be considered sensible/serious about your religious ideology if you believe an actual "man in the sky" will both judge you for your actions and reward/punish you and also not do so. Men aren't immortal beings with no needs who can easily survive in the clouds/space/whatever, and you're either getting judged and paid accordingly or not, it's not both. Also, the only religious group I ever see actually be persecuted/harassed is Muslims, lol, how did they appropriate that also?!
Excuse me? The only group being harassed/persecuted is MUSLIMS? Have you ever heard of this group of people called the "Jews"?
Hell even the Christians in Africa are currently being slaughtered in their tens of thousands.
The "religious group" mostly composed of European atheists (by their own admission) with their murderous own white supremacist colony fully supported by the biggest empire in the world, both engaged in the systematic eradication of Muslims (either as a main goal or as "acceptable losses")? Yeah, somehow I doubt they're as persecuted, lol, although I understand the pain of WW2 and Ashkenazi genocide.
Ah, so it is a competition? We are only counting the MOST persecuted religious group? Also putting religious group in quotation marks when talking about Jews isn't a dog whistle of any kind is it?
Not in this situation, this is why people say "Jew is both a religion and an ethnicity!!!" when talking about European "Jews": because many/most of them are and self-identify as atheist, they just mean they have European ancestry that at some point actually believed and don't wanna let go of that identity label for whatever reason. I guess it's very American? Haven't we all heard of them being "Italian" because someone in their lineage at some point came from Italy but today they eat spaghetti with ketchup? 😅
And I wouldn't say it's a competition but when the biggest guns and bombs are consistently aimed and dropped on the same group, and it's not the one people keep talking about, something is fishy. Men get abused too, ofc, but if someone kept mentioning female on male beatings and disregarded the male on female ones, some eyebrows would be raised, I bet.
Not in this situation, this is why people say “Jew is both a religion and an ethnicity!!!” when talking about European “Jews”: because many/most of them are and self-identify as atheist, they just mean they have European ancestry that at some point actually believed and don’t wanna let go of that identity label for whatever reason. I guess it’s very American? Haven’t we all heard of them being “Italian” because someone in their lineage at some point came from Italy but today they eat spaghetti with ketchup?
Are you saying that Jews as a religious group do not exist and are not persecuted because a lot of ethnic Jews are atheist?
And I wouldn’t say it’s a competition
Good.
but when the biggest guns and bombs are consistently aimed and dropped on the same group, and it’s not the one people keep talking about, something is fishy.
Good thing this isn't happening then. We are CONSTANTLY, talking about Palestine. YOU were the one who said "Also, the only religious group I ever see actually be persecuted/harassed is Muslims, lol,". Do you agree that this is false?
Also, the only religious group I ever see actually be persecuted/harassed is Muslims, lol, how did they appropriate that also?!
That's very easy if both your holy book AND everyone around you feeds into your persecution complex..