Yeah. Marx called it formal vs. real freedom. All the people are free to sleep under the bridges or at a five star penthouse. But some are forced to sleep under the bridge and only a few have means to exercise the freedom to enter the penthouse.

Slavery evolved and took on new names, but never disappeared.

How much do you have saved up, that you're willing to tap into so that you can live for yourself and others, and not a paycheck? How long could you just exist before the debt becomes crushing? That's the length of your leash.

Retired people who live comfortably are basically 'off leash' but still confined to the yard. Some people have a 1-2 week 'leash'. Some may have saved up enough to have a 6-12 month 'leash The rest are the 'i could stop working whenever I want, but refuse to' or 'man I'm so fucking far in debt that I'll never be able to stop fucking working'

Most people will never be able to stop working because I'm a slave based economy, a slave must earn it's food every day, and it's bed every night.

“It is difficult for me to imagine what ‘personal liberty’ is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment. Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread.”

Unironically what natives of the Great Lakes region have been saying about the "civilized" western way of life for centuries.

Yup. I remember a friend and I discussing various forms of freedoms: Freedom of speech, religion, privacy, etc. We tried to rank them by importance, and while I cannot remember our conclusions, I remember "Economic freedom" to be among the most important ones.

A person should have disposable income and freedom to spent it how they want.

The USA you're free to do whatever you like as long as it's these few specific things we believe are economically beneficial to the leaders but not you.

The economy is designed to keep you locked into working for the rest of your life under stress. Freedom is only given to capitalists because that's how the system is designed.

Asterix did a great bit on that. Slaves are freed and put to work for money, but suddenly they owe for food, housing, clothing, infrastructure etc. and are just as much slaves as before. In fact, they go back to being slaves because then they don't have to worry anymore.

its by design, politicians billionaire class intentionally instigated this way so people dont start pondering about politics, rising up against the aristocrats.

Eh, yes and no.

People often don't really appreciate how much freedom they have until it's taken away.

But even with no money at all, I have a bike, and I can ride it as far as I care to in any direction I want (well, at least until I hit a border). And that is so much more freedom than I've had at other points in my life.

It's like having health insurance but you can't afford the copays. Then you don't really have health insurance do you ?

I would say more to the point if everything in life needs to make a profit then freedom isn't free

Everyone here should remember the story of Damocles. One of the things I enjoy about being poor is that I have nothing for people to steal. I don't worry about muggings, carjackings, home invasions, kidnapping. When you have money, a line starts to form to take it from you.

Slavery is not being denied the ability to earn wages.

Slavery is being denied the ability to save.

Freedom to toil, freedom to starve, freedom to suffer without medicine or medical care. Freedom to freeze on the cold and bake in the sun.

This is freedom under capitalism

Yep, for more information on that read Debt: the First 5000 Years, it goes pretty deep into it from both anthropological and political perspectives

It is tricky, yes.

If you happen to be able to participate in events that are free however, you have more options.

Yes, and this is why old school liberals (i.e. supporters of liberty for all) support social programs. Supporting those that can't comfortably support themselves brings freedom from exploitation.

It is with this premise that I began to formulate a concept of UBI, ranked income, and so forth. People simply can't do stuff if they don't have enough things to support a baseline existence. That baseline should be strong enough to offer education, health, freedom to wait for jobs that aren't abusive, the ability to travel, and so on. Agency is the core to an effective human, and our capitalistic society is designed to confer that agency upon a few.

Maybe freedom as in financial freedom? I feel trapped cause of trauma and stuff but there's layers.

Sounds a bit extreme. What about all the things you can do for free? Also, the world needs cheap things to keep everyone spending. I’m pretty sure there will always be at least something even the poor can afford.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty

It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment.

Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible.

– Joey S

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

Are we going to have yet another round of "everyone should be free to do whatever they want except set up groups with mutual interests"? People want some magical force in the universe, beyond human conventions, that prevents any person or group from gaining power over another.