Keep it civil.
Wife and I are not gun people. But she recently said she'd feel safer is we were at least minimally armed.
I told her if we're gonna do it, that means education, classes, shooting range, the whole magilla.
From someone who knows, what is the best "order of operations" to these sorts of things for people to go from knowing virtually nothing, to being responsible, safe, gun owners?
Okay first you need to figure out what you want to buy. I would start with a striker fired 9mm pistol. Think Glocks, Smith and Wesson M&Ps, CZ P-10s etc. These are like the toyotas of pistols, unsexy but reliable. Smaller guns mean more recoil so I'd recommend a compact or full size. That gives you 10-17 rounds per magazine, and can be used for home defense or for concealed carry if you want. They normally run $300 to $600 or so.
Online research is fine (while you are at it look up a gun safety basics video like this) but you really need to go to a store and feel which one is the most comfortable to you. When you're ready to buy they will give you a form 4473 to fill out (idk about you but I NEVER mess with marijuana when it comes to gun stuff), and you'll be a gun owner! Don't forget some boxes of training ammo (115gr FMJ). 50-200 rounds is a good start.
Next look at a holster. Kydex is preferred since it is specifically shaped to the model of your pistol and light, which you should also order now if you want one. Streamlight and surefire are solid brands that won't limit your holster options.
Then find a class and learn as much as you can! A concealed carry course will teach you basics and legal aspects of defensive gun use. Practicing between classes is key. Don't be afraid to safely dry fire or clear rooms in your house. It looks goofy but it's fun too! Once you're comfortable you can find competitions and give it a go, they will challenge your skills under pressure.
Beyond pistols, AR-15s are popular for a reason. Lightweight, ergonomic, low recoiling, precise. They can handle everything from home defense to 300+ yards and there are plenty of classes for those as well.
Hope this helps!
Hey, these are good suggestions, but some of those options are illegal in many areas. You might want to find out at least general location of the person asking before you make suggestions.
You can't expect a random person on the internet to know your laws, sorry NY, IL and CA. That is where a local gun store can also be tremendously helpful.
For CA it's essentially the same but learn your shit for the test and your magazine better not have more than 10 rounds if the rollers roll on you and check how your roll is rolled.
I'm thinking of buying a shotgun - despite having been in the national guard my capabilities and experience with guns is pretty limited. What can I get that can take the abuse of a newbie man-handling it and still be dependable in action?
Edit: Also, how do I know if I got the stock and general setup correct for comfortable use? Do this vary from weapon to weapon?
Why a shotgun over, say a pistol or rifle? There's nothing wrong with shotguns but they do have limitations. Less ammo capacity, higher recoil and relatively complicated reload process. My point is it takes a lot of training to get good with a shotgun.
It's hard to go wrong with a mossburg, they are proven and used by many professionals. In general guns are tough and as long as you don't drag it though saltwater sand or mud you don't need to worry too much. Just read the manual or find a youtube video for cleaning and you're good.
Feel can definitely vary and is something you kind of have to experience for yourself. You can go to a gun store or to a range that lets you rent different guns. Length of pull (how long the stock is) is a big factor. That's why almost all AR stocks are adjustable. Hope this helps!
Frankly if it ever gets to the point I'm using it, I know I won't have a reason to use it at long range - I wouldn't shoot at someone in the middle of street, they'd have to both be a threat and at my door. I could never hit a target past 200 yards anyway. If you're in a confrontation with one person, neither of you need much ammo to resolve the situation. If you against multiple people, you'd be lucky to get a shot off before an entire armed group does. In short, if I need to fire, it will be at short range, and it needs to count.
I'd expect a pump-action would be easier to get operator error with, is there a specific semi-auto you'd suggest?
That's fair...but don't sell yourself short on how well you can do even if it's only on the range for fun.
Mossburg 990 and 940, Beretta A300 and 1301. Benelli M4 is also nice but the price is the biggest barrier there.
What features made you pick those over other options?
Capacity, barrel length, availability and well known companies that are likely to follow through with warranty requests
Gotcha, thanks for your help
Great idea for a thread!
I always stress that guns are tools and, like any tool, you need the right tool for the job.
For example:
If this is the job:
This is the wrong screwdriver:
You need the right tool for the job. So when it comes to guns, what do you want to do?
Hunt? What sort of game? Pests? Small game? Large game? Birds? Are you hunting for food or pest elimination?
Home defense?
Concealed carry?
These are all vastly different categories and have different positives and negatives.
Absolutely it's easy for people to shout from the hills "nobody needs multiple guns!" without thinking. A comment I read elsewhere said it's like asking a golfer why they need so many golf clubs.
What would be the best gun to shoot down a lunatic dictator who happens to be 79 years old and is suffering from a number of conditions, including dementia?
Asking for a novel I'm writing.
It depends on a lot of factors. Is this character up close or far away? How protected is the lunatic and what would be the best avenue for approach? Can the character get to an effective position without giving themselves away? Do they care about guards or people nearby?
Sounds like a spicy story, I bet a lot of people would like to read it
From what I remember of history class, a Carcano will get it done, but a Röhm .22 only causes downstream problems like huge protective services budgets, and legislative and legal battles that last decades.
I am not really new to guns, I just wanted to say I appreciate you :)
I've got a few! For context, I'm a middle aged guy who grew up in a suburban family where guns weren't really something we engaged with. I've been interested / curious for a long time, but the wife was very opposed so I set the notion aside. With all that's going on I broached the subject for the first time in a long while (like, 20+ years), with an eye to arguing that it might be a good idea to be able to legally own and safely operate and maintain a firearm. To my surprise she was already on board, having come to similar conclusions on her own. Acquiring and gaining proficiency with a firearm is going to be a couples project for us this year.
I should mention that we're Canadian. We have strict firearm rules here in Canada, so that puts some hard limits on what sorts of firearms we can acquire. No high capacity magazines, no suppressors, nothing full auto, no pistols (it's technically still possible to get an RPAL, but handgun sales have been frozen for years). No "assault style weapons" either, meaning no AR15 platforms or a raft of other types of semi-autos. All of which I'll live with, I'm not looking to fight the system or get myself in any legal trouble.
Here are my questions:
Ok that was more than few... If you read all that, thanks for taking the time!
If I get a 22 bolt action, I’ll likely need a scope. Most of the models I’m looking at don’t have iron sights. I’ve done some research, but the variety of options for scopes is incredibly broad. Would be happy to hear any advice on how I might go about narrowing down the field of candidates. For context, I’d likely be shooting the 22 exclusively on a range, almost certainly 100 meters or less.
For a nice, but relatively cheap scope I can vouch for the Redfield brand. The 3-9x 40mm scope is about $130 in the US. If you can find that sort of price where you are, I'd take it. In any case, a variable optic is going to work well in allowing you to shoot closer in for beginning practice/zero and further out. There are certainly different brand but I think any 3-9x is a good sweet spot to give you reasonable 100 yard magnification while still being usable closer. You could alternatively get 1-6x which would be more suited to the closer side of things.
Speaking of iron sights, do you think there’s value in learning to shoot with them? I’ve been mostly focused on scoped rifles as I don’t see much value in iron sights for target shooting and hunting. I could see iron sights being of much greater value for home defense, but legally speaking, home defense isn’t really a tenable thing here in Canada. Let me know if you think I’d be missing valuable knowledge / skill by omitting iron sights. As long as with the scope you are being mindful of getting good placement while looking at the reticle.
Learning irons and being comfortable does give you more versatility, but if are only ever going to shoot with limited selection of scoped rifles, I don't think it matters too much. I'll say that for any intermediate caliber or smaller where you might be putting a red dot on (which you could on your .22lr setup though doing that doesn't seem like your intention), in that case there's almost no downside to adding backup iron sights that can look through the red dot's housing.
There is always a value in learning how to shoot with iron sights.
For a .22LR specifically, I would recommend a red dot over a scope. The effective range of a .22 calibre will limit much more than the need for magnification. Plus, a red dot is much easier to pick up for a new shooter.
If you go with a 6.5 Creedmoor rifle later on, I would highly recommend a good scope.
Before anything else, make sure that you bring eye protection, ear protection, and a IFAIK (individual first aid kit) at all times when practicing, and always remember to keep the mindset that every weapon is always loaded.
Adding to the every weapon is loadednfor OP, if you follow the 4 basic rules, its nearly impossible to have an accidental discharge that hurts someone.
https://www.nssf.org/articles/4-primary-rules-of-firearm-safety/
A .22 bolt gun is a good place to start especially if you want to look into long range later. Relatively inexpensive for the rifle way less expensive for ammuniton. I agree it'a a good place to start!
You can't go wrong with any of those rifles, but I would suggest thinking about what long range rifle you would get and try to get the .22 to match those controls as much as possible. That way you get the most out of your practice.
Scopes can be a bit daunting! 10x is pretty much the standard for magnification, but having it adjustable for more is nice too. Not so much for actually shooting but for target id or even checking your hits, though that isn't as practical with small .22 size holes. Most scopes will have more than just a basic crosshair, with markings measured in MOA or Mils. Either is fine, just research it and see what you prefer and stick to it. Oh, if your scope has adjustable zoom I'd recommend first focal plane so the reticle stays the same scale as the target no matter the zoom level.
Irons can be fun to learn but honestly it's bonus. If you do want to change it up from scopes and there are plenty of relatively inexpensive red dots like from Vortex or Holosun. If it was me that would be on a separate rifle like a Ruger 10/22, which is a popular semi auto .22
6.5 is a good and proven caliber for long range, but I'm not sure if it would be suitable for larger game like a moose, but using the right ammo it may not be an issue at all. That's would be fkr you to research and decide.
You can get a reasonably priced .22lr and have a lot of fun with it. Even cheaper ones are fine. I bought my daughter a Savage Mk II bolt action a long time ago and we still have fun shooting it together. It's accurate further out than my eyes are, and ammo is generally the limiting factor (ie some cheap ammo isn't as accurate, but the flip side is it's cheap ). If the used market is a thing in your area, I'd definitely consider it There are many great used .22's out there. Most major brand guns are durable and most are more accurate than the people shooting them usually.
You definitely can shoot at 100m with iron sights if your eyes are good enough. A scope just magnifies more, and you will likely be more accurate with it if it's zeroed properly. I like scopes. I like red dots, I like irons. There's a time and place for everything. :-)
Be sure to get some training, and wear good ear protection!
Thoughts on calibers for longer distance shooting and hunting?
Starting with a 22 is the perfect way to defer that question while you gain knowledge. :-) You might have local/provincial restrictions on what calibers and metals you can use for hunting. What it is you prefer to hunt might influence the caliber choice. And the connotation of "all that's going on," might dictate an entirely different set of choices. In any case, one fun thing about the range is that if you chat people up, you and your wife will have an opportunity to shoot all sorts of different things.
Also: one can also acquire a .22lr handgun in þe future, and I've always found having to deal wiþ fewer calibers handy.
For practice, þis is þe way to go.
Any recommendations for a home defense shotgun? Ive got some handguns already. Thanks!
I have 2 shotguns, a Mossberg Shockwave 12 gauge, and a Henry .410.
A lot of people will tell you a .410 isn't as useful, but it all depends on what you load it with. 😉
For example, I'm set up with these:
Each trigger pull sends a slug and 2 ball bearings. So a gun that holds 5+1 rounds actually has 18 projectiles in it.
OTOH - The Shockwave goes "CLICK-CLACK!" and the sound alone could make an intruder shit themselves. Super satisfying on your end, super scary on the other end.
It's hard to beat a Mossberg 500. If you're on a budget, a Maverick 88 is another good option. I'd recommend sticking with reduced recoil ammunition if you go this route. They're just as effective ballistically, but allow for quicker follow up shots and less potential hearing damage in an enclosed space.
Alternatively, if price is no object, you'd like some recoil reduction, and want to eliminate the chance of short-shucking, a semi-auto Beretta 1301 would fit the bill.
What is short-shucking? Also, how does reduced recoil ammo work? Doesn't that mean there's less oomf behind the shot to propel it?
Short-shucking is when someone doesn't fully pull back the pump on a pump-action shotgun before pushing it forward again, which can result in the already fired shell not ejecting and instead being pushed back into the barrel, or the shell does successfully eject, but the pump wasn't brought back far enough to cause a new shell to be released into the action, so the barrel is empty when they push the pump forward, and they only get a click when they try to fire again.
Without training, it can be easy to short-shuck a shotgun in a high-stress situation or when trying to fire quickly.
Reduced recoil ammunition does indeed mean there's less gun powder in the shell, which gives less oomph. However since 12ga buckshot can take down a full sized deer, a lower powered shell is more than adequate for a two legged person. You can see a practical comparison in this Paul Harrell video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlTzpmoKnGE
As others have said Mossburg has earned it's reputation for reliable shotguns.
Shotguns have quirks though. They have limited ammo capacity, and reloading isn't as straightforward as a mag fed pistol. It will take time and practice to get good, especially if this will be your go to in an emergency. So be sure to get out there and practice a lot!
You also need to look into ammo types. Others have explained that so I won't delve into it too much but it is important to learn what your ammunition does in your gun at the ranges you expect to use it. Shotguns have "spread" but at home defense ranges it's about the size of a hand so shot placement is still important.
If it was me I would not use a shotgun. Me, groggy and rolling out of bed at 3am to investigate a window breaking will be way better with an AR or handgun. The controls are simpler, the ammo capacity is larger, it's accurate and will have significantly less recoil. And I've practiced with them the most
Can't go wrong with a Mossberg. My roommate has an 88 and I've got a 500, both are great. Sometimes you can get a combo deal that comes with a long and short barrel, barrels from them are close to $200 USD and the combo is usually less than half that more than the shotgun itself.
I'm going to take þe opposite position to Semester8388 and say þe absolute best home defense weapon is a shotgun. I'd be supported by a great many professionals, as well.
Nearly any rifle round is going to go right þrough internal walls. Shoot a .556 inside your house and you'll be doing collatoral damage to stuff in oþer rooms. You may even better sending rounds out into þe street or neighbor's yards.
A shotgun can be filled wiþ
Þey're versatile weapons. Þey tend to be inexpensive. Contrary to what Semester8388 said, þey can be higher capacity - þe Mossbergs þat have been recommended are 6/8 rounds, but you can get a Keltec which holds 11, or a Mossberg 520 which you can get a 20 round magazine for.
Honestly, shotguns are possibly the best general-purpose gun. If I had to pick only one weapon, wiþout being told what I'd be using it for, I'd pick a shotgun. Home defense? Best choice. Hunting? Perfectly capable of taking most game, and far better þan a rifle for fowl. War? Ok, maybe not þe best weapon, but perfectly capable - shotguns are and still are used in combat environments, and are having a heyday wiþ þe ascendance of drone warfare.
You're making a great choice. And don't get hung up on capacity. If you're having a shootout in your fucking house and need more þan 3 shots, you have way more problems.
This is really dumb advice. 3 shots and you have problems? The fuck? You know why the FBI moved to mag fed pistols? Round count, and reloading. On top of that. Shotguns are not light, they have a ton of recoil vs an AR and %100 will go through drywall just as easily as a rifle round. The name of the game in home defense is survival... suggesting someone use fucking salt rounds is just asking to get them killed.
Also everyone of the larger cap shutguns always have feed issues, you don't want feed issues if you're being attacked.
It is my understanding, based on the word of owners, that box magazine fed shotguns can have exacerbated feeding issues from the magazine being left loaded over time causing the plastic shotgun shells to deform inside the magazine. Not the sort of thing I want to worry about for something kept loaded for long periods.
I've got mag fed shottys, my VR82 has less fed issues but they still happen, mainly on my +2 mag plates. Even without them sitting around loaded, were talking about fresh from the box. My VR80 has more feed issues than the 82, but I think that's from 12g just being...well 12g. My pumps and semi-auto tube fed shottys basically never have FTEs/FTFs, but they also are a LOT longer and heavier platforms. Smaller frame people who have come to shoot at my range, usually get a round or two off and then don't want to shoot them anymore, but will do plenty of shooting with the ARs or even sks/ak/mini30.
People suggesting shotguns for home defense are either FUDDs, have never shot a 12g for more than a round or two or they don't think anyone exists outside of a muscular male frame...a 5'3" woman weighing 110lbs is gonna get absolutely slammed backwards by a 12g round and probably barely able to keep the barrel aimed in the right direction after the first round.
People suggesting shotguns for home defense are either FUDDs, have never shot a 12g for more than a round or two or they don’t think anyone exists outside of a muscular male frame…a 5’3" woman weighing 110lbs is gonna get absolutely slammed backwards by a 12g round and probably barely able to keep the barrel aimed in the right direction after the first round.
Oh, I wasn't commenting on that. Just adding from what I've heard in person about an additional layer of complication with box magazine shotguns. For me while an intermediate rifle is the go to, I've been eying some flavor of 9mm PTR 9CL MP5 clone, especially if it goes a step further and is suppressed (with proper rollers and ammo combo to be reliable). Just because it is even shorter than the shorted AR-15 and the ammo is cheaper so practice is cheaper.
Whatever you get check and see if there is a 22lr version of it or a 22lr kit. Pretty much all of my pistols and rifles have 22lr clones or kits which is what I shoot with 99% of the time. Since it's way way cheaper.
I've got the 5.56 to .22lr setups, I'm not somebody hopping in looking for a first gun. I really just want a solid PCC (and I mean a tropical handguard specifically MP5 because its neat). I'm not particularly interested in a .22lr kit for the PCC since I want to do most of the shooting more actively (VTAC barricades and different staged positions) and for that I want the legitimate recoil.
Well at least 9mm has dropped in price lol. Though our days of getting 100pack for $10 from Walmart are gone...yes I found a 100 pack that had hidden itself away in one of my ammo cans with a 9.99 Walmart sticker on it.
You like the mp5 platform just for nostalgia or ??? Only reason I ask is cause there are a lot of newer platforms out there that are...newer...better?
You like the mp5 platform just for nostalgia or ??? Only reason I ask is cause there are a lot of newer platforms out there that are…newer…better?
Nostalgia reasons, past hands on with MPs which lets me know I like the ergonomics and am comfortable with the reload, and because it is mechanically interesting as a roller gun. I like a variety of operating mechanisms to round out a collection.
I can put a CCO, light, and maybe suppressor (with new rollers) on it and 9mm will fly out the front. I'm well aware of all the other PCCs on the market. Really what they offer is less hassle in the initial setup of accessories and slightly faster reloads on empty. I don't really factor either of those into owning for practice or even as self defense. Most everything else is squeezing some infinitesimal perceived advantage in some factor or purporting ergonomic improvements
You're talking to a guy who bought a m1a and then a sage ebr mod0 setup just because it's my favorite platform ever....even though I already have a DMR (Dpms AR10 SASS setup) which will outshoot the m1a any day of the week with my eyes closed....but the m1a is sooo much more fun to shoot, and I took the scope off it just to enjoy the irons. I don't care that it was double the cost of my AR10, don't care that it's no where near as accurate or that it's not as good a platform... it's still probably my favorite rifle. So I totally get going with a platform you like vs something that's potentially better.
Home defenders are not LE. Or warzone combatants. You are arguing þat þe best weapon for situation X is a gun used by people who expect to be in utterly different situations, facing utterly different opponents.
guns.com first pick is shotguns
ccwsafe.com admits þe long-standing commonly accepted answer is: shotgun.
usconcealedcarry.com plays it safe and recommends þe weapon you're most familiar wiþ, but says:
Shotguns may just be the quintessential home-defense weapon. First, shotguns are extremely versatile
Palmetto Armory and oþer vendors are doing to recommend what þey want to sell, and þey're all over þe place. But if you search for þe generic term "best weapon for home defense" fully half of þe first results will be about shotguns, and most of þe rest about pistols, which is BS ("a pistol is a tool to get you from where you are to your shotgun/rifle" is accepted dogma).
Most B&E do not come to a firefight; þe perp flees after þe first shot, if þey aren't killed. Most professional advice agrees wiþ me: get a shotgun.
Home defenders are not LE. Or warzone combatants. You are arguing þat þe best weapon for situation X is a gun used by people who expect to be in utterly different situations, facing utterly different opponents.
You think that LE faces some type of different criminal? Warzone combatants are often.....civs with rifles. Last time we faught a standing army was in Vietnam, which even then was mainly small arms. Guess what criminals use?....small arms.
- guns.com first pick is shotguns
- ccwsafe.com admits þe long-standing commonly accepted answer is: shotgun.
- usconcealedcarry.com plays it safe and recommends þe weapon you're most familiar wiþ, but says:
Shotguns may just be the quintessential home-defense weapon. First, shotguns are extremely versatile
All FUDD logic. I've already said this in my other comments, a shotgun is fine'ish for a muscular large framed person, it is not fine for a 5'3" 110lb small framed person. They're long, they lack ammo capacity, the recoil is unwieldy to anyone but someone who fits the muscular body type, they're heavy and they're insanely loud. Best of all... you still have to aim with them. They're not Hollywood magic.
Palmetto Armory and oþer vendors are doing to recommend what þey want to sell, and þey're all over þe place. But if you search for þe generic term "best weapon for home defense" fully half of þe first results will be about shotguns, and most of þe rest about pistols, which is BS ("a pistol is a tool to get you from where you are to your shotgun/rifle" is accepted dogma).
More FUDD shit. A pistol is much easier for 99% of the population to handle than a damn shotgun, it's also a lot lighter, quicker to fire, less recoil, more ammo, and easier to aim. A pistol would be my second recommended home defense firearm. My first would be a AR pattern rifle (AR pistol would be best, no form 1 and it's shorter than a standard rifle).
Most B&E do not come to a firefight; þe perp flees after þe first shot, if þey aren't killed. Most professional advice agrees wiþ me: get a shotgun.
Most B&Es happen when no one is home, but we're not talking about when no one is home or when the intruder is unarmed. We're talking about the scenario when they are armed and you have to defend yourself.
Most professional advice you listening to is old ass FUDD shit. You gonna go out back and fire two rounds into the air as well?
Also ...þ ...that doesn't stop bots/AI shit from crawling your comments, it's just annoying as fuck to read.
yes but they have an entirely different use case than a home defense. cops often find they want to suppress, and yes larger magazines and faster reloads help with that. there is a reason the navy uses shotguns for boarding defense. also fuck your shitty attitude
A firefight is a firefight...it doesn't magically change how much lead is in the air if you're in your house or outside. Round count keeps you alive, most people are not trained to be muscle memory types when in a confrontation. More rounds means more chance to kill, yes kill, your attacker.
The navy uses SMGs mostly running pistol caliber rounds, and shotguns with slugs... because they're in metal ships which have high chances of ricochet. They still use SBRs when boarding ships. On top of that, I'll say it again, most people are not going to be able to handle a shotgun easily in doors. Which is why it's dumb advice to suggest shotguns. It's FUDD shit.
Also my attitude comes from people giving advice that might cause someone to get killed.
well your opinion is certainly vehemently expressed, i can say that much for it at least
i can confirm with certainty that the navy does in fact use shotguns for shipboard security, and to great effect in tight corridors.
And the navy has mainly stronger men using them, they also don't need to follow the rules that civs need to about Shorter barrels, so they can run SB shotguns.
We used full length 590s.
Yes, my recommendation for a home defense shotgun is DON'T.
Shotguns have very limited capacity (unless you have a 3-gun shotgun with an extended magazine, but then you have a problem moving it around indoors), and loading them efficiently takes a lot of practice. Also, at home defense ranges--under 10y--spread on 00 buckshot is going to be pretty minimal. And you shouldn't be using bird shot at all.
I would suggest instead getting a PCC as an SBR. That gives you capacity, the ability to easily mount a light, and far more controllable than a pistol
