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Miller fails to recognize the Nuremberg Trials, Following illegal orders is inexcusable in a courtroom.
If you're saying "refuse illegal orders" is a rebellion that's uh...preeeetty telling on what sort of orders you're planning on giving.
"It is insurrection, plainly, directly, without question," Miller later told Fox News. "It's a general call for rebellion from the CIA and the armed services of the United States by Democrat lawmakers, saying that you have not only the right, but the duty and the obligation to defy orders of the commander-in-chief that those who carry weapons in America's name should defy their chain of command and engage in open acts of insurrection."
It's a short article that's mostly his quotes, worth the read.
Its literally your job to refuse an illegal order as a US service member.
That's what my dad always told me when I was growing up as a brat; refusing to obey an illegal order isn't a choice, it's a requirement. You must not follow illegal orders, if you do you are committing a crime.
Also a brat who spent around 16 years growing up on various military bases...... The problem with this idea is the expectation that enlisted men are knowledgeable enough to recognize an illegal order, while simultaneously being stupid enough to put their necks on the line to refuse a direct order from an officer.
In the military as an enlisted man, you are guilty until proven innocent. It would be easier to get off knowingly participating in a war crime than to knowingly refuse an illegal order.
The idea that American servicemen are trained to recognize and refuse illegal order is a fallacy. My dad did 26 years as an enlisted man and eventually made chief, he will openly admit to having zero faith in the US military ability to do the right thing.
thank god we take the oath the constitution and not goblin himmler
It does, however, require you to swear or affirm that you will follow the orders of the President, and the UCMJ puts the onus on the accusing service member to prove that an order is unlawful. It's a lot to ask of service members that likely only joined because they needed college money.
I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God)."
Edit: Ya'll are right, I didn't realize the officer oath excluded the "following orders" bit.
I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. (Title 5 U.S. Code 3331, an individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services)
It does, however, require you to swear or affirm that you will follow the orders of the President,
LAWFUL ORDERS.
Look, you don't need a JAG officer on standby to know you're not supposed to open up on a crowd of fuckin kids. This really isn't the ambiguous terrain you're making it out to be.
Would it be better to have an executive branch that wasn't a fucking traitorous pile of garbage? OF COURSE.
And we don't have to say "so help me god" unless we want to. Affirming your oath is fine.
This administration is built on the concept of gradually but continually pushing the boundaries of what's legal. First it's using federal troops to guard CBP as they violate constitutional rights, then it's murdering unnamed persons in boats in the Caribbean. Next will be something just a little bit more illegal, and eventually there may come a day where there's something as clear cut as opening up on a crowd of kids. But by then, how are a few troops supposed to prove that this is illegal while not speaking up about whatever they did last? Not to mention the longer this goes on the more they organize the command structure by loyalty over competence.
I don't think we can rely on waiting for a clear cut example like yours, people in power need to be pushing back now or it will be too late
is it the caribbean? I think of it as the golf of stupidity....
The creep you're describing - I think the us military institutions can survive an admin of that without total failure, but that's the miltiary. ICE is rapidly becoming a paramilitary strong point with funding rivaling actual services, staffed with proudboys and 3% types (and apparently, as recently caught, pedophiles) that I worry about more than the Enlisted and NCOs of the services.
I think. I can certainly be wrong. And none of this should be happening in the first place, this isn't something we should have to consider at all, but thanks to spineless fuckwit republicans covering him, his treason, his insurrection, his lies and crimes, here we are.
They have to infiltrate as many orgs as they can to get around the separation of powers system. But yeah ICE seems particularly bad.
Plus if the order that has made its way down to enlisted in such a way that the enlisted has to determine if it's illegal or not, then theres a bigger problem.
If officers can give the order to hold any return fire, then they can also give the order to do something that is not illegal.
Chain of command is a powerful structure
Chain of command is a powerful structure
valid. that kind of deception to the rank and file is what we're seeing with the unlawful attacks right now.
The problem is that the UCMJ puts the onus on the "accuser" to prove that the order was unlawful. It's an awful lot to ask of a public servant. The whole situation sucks.
as I said, would it be better to have an executive branch that wasn't a traitorous pile of garbage? Yes.
100%
What was ambiguous to you? Also I said that. You must swear or affirm. I personally chose to affirm when I took my oath of enlistment.
to know you're not supposed to open up on a crowd of fuckin kids.
Unfortunately Fox has been screaming that the kids/Dems are traitors for 20 years now. And that Patriots something something. I don't think a little ceremony is going to undo decades of brainwashing to hate libs.
you do realize there's a difference between your grandparents and the US military command structure, right?
yeah, there are some conservative types, and religious conservative types in the service, but they're far outnumbered by the people just doing the job. and people who serve have a much better idea of how hypocritical that rhetoric is coming from a bucket of traitor monkeys like faux news.
and I know conservatives who recognize it's nothing more than a propaganda mill for the GOP. cynically, they don't stop supporting it, but everyone knows.
I love messages that start with snark.
You do realize that people are individuals, right?
Yeah there are some intellectuals, and some that understand their oaths, but they're far outnumbered by the people that joined the military because they had no options. And people that watch Fox 24/7 generationally who know a libtard when they see them and hate them so much and know better than their nerdy superior.
Last actual point: Don't confuse officer command with the masses of soldiers that have watched Fox 24/7. The officers may know and may not follow, but many soldiers (not all, because why do I think I have to put in all the caveats) are lets just say entirely different. Like if you think it's only grandparents being swayed by Fox then I have no words. Ok I'm out.
That's the enlisted oath, the officer's oath has no such obligation.
Ahh, I was enlisted so I didn't know that the officer's oath excludes the "following orders" bit.
The sexual matador really wants to go full Nazi.
If it walks like a Stephen Miller and quacks like a Stephen Miller, it is probably a nazi.
I don't know whether Stephen Miller quacks, but I am pretty sure that he goose steps.
He, also suffers from the same genital defects as Hitler. Fun fact.
Oh Stephen miller is in the news?
Perfect! Over a year old but by God there's no better Stephen miller interview.
Only watch if you want to see Stephen miller shoutting getting red in the face yelling at a very calm persistent venezuelan journalist.
Do you think Elon let's him watch while he's ploughing his wife?
An admission that orders issued soon will be illegal
After all this is over and Stephen Miller is placed under arrest or whatever else it may be, I will celebrate in the streets.
Classic FOX blaming the "Democrats" from the civil war, which were in fact what we call today Republicans.
It's pretty fucked up that we're at the point of relying on service members to decide that an order is unlawful. The Uniform Code of Military Justice doesn't exactly side with the military members in this instance, but it also doesn't explicitly prohibit it. Here are some crib notes from the US Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces.
United States v. Sterling, 75 M.J. 407 (a lawful order must relate to military duty, which includes all activities reasonably necessary to accomplish a military mission, or safeguard or promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of members of a command and directly connected with the maintenance of good order in the service).
(the dictates of a person’s conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot justify or excuse the disobedience of an otherwise lawful order).
(an order is presumed to be lawful, and the accused bears the burden of rebutting the presumption).
(to be lawful, an order must (1) have a valid military purpose, and (2) be clear, specific, and narrowly drawn; in addition, the order must not conflict with the statutory or constitutional rights of the person receiving the order).
If chain of command is always followed, then the orders will be neutered before they can be carried out.
While any superior officer can circumvent subordinates, as far as I understand it, this would be highly unusual, insulting, and self-disparaging. Technically Miller himself could give the orders to specific troops to carry out, but as soon as his orders are issued, the troops commanding officer can belay those and issue their own.
There is a reason tyrants don't like chain of command.
Miller isn't in the military chain of command.
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The Great White Worm has spoken!
ᛋᛋtephen Miller is a piece of shit
"Rebellion!" Screams the chronic angry man who is giving illegal orders that would be treason, regardless of who is giving the order.
How can service members be confident enough that the order is illegal, to refuse it, or believe adhering to their oath offers any protection from retaliation?
