In the 90s this wasn't political. Now 2 dudes......
this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2025
309 points (97.8% liked)
Risa: Your Home Away from Spacedock
443 readers
105 users here now
Welcome to Risa
All the pleasure of shore leave, none of the holodeck glitches.
Rule 1 — Be Civil, Not Klingon
This is a vacation planet, not the neutral zone.
- No harassment, brigading, or trolling
- No bigotry
- Keep the banter playful, not hostile
Rule 2 — No Prohibited Cargo
Some things aren’t welcome aboard.
- No spam or scams
- No porn or sexually explicit content
- No illegal content
- NSFW memes must be properly tagged
Rule 3 — Keep It Trek
Posts should be Star Trek memes or Trek-adjacent humor.
- Crossovers are fine
- Low-effort “unrelated” memes may be spaced out the nearest airlock
Rule 4 — Gatekeeping Belongs in a Black Hole
You’re welcome to have your own opinions on what counts as “real” Star Trek but forcing your view on others or pretending it’s the only valid one? That’s not the Starfleet way.
Everyone’s Trek is valid, from TOS purists to Lower Decks shitposters, and you don't get to dictate what is real or not for everyone.
If you see a post that violates the rules, or that doesn't inspire Jamaharon, report it so the mods can handle it.
Otherwise grab a horga’hn, order a Risan Mai Tai, and enjoy your shore leave.
founded 1 month ago
MODERATORS
Dax was 2 dudes
😂😂😂
Tap for spoiler
Yes, I know that "third gender" isn't the same as a "dude" and that they chickened out by having Soren played by a female actor. But it still counts, damn it!
Typically when I comment, I have something meaningful to add to the conversation. Sometimes though, I just find that an upvote isn't enough to capture my emphatic agreement with a person.
This is one of the latter times.
I agree that two men kissing would've been far more controversial, but two women kissing was still definitely political in the 90s. I've read stuff from Deep Space 9 writers saying that the ability to have scenes like this is one of the reasons why they love sci-fi as a genre, because it allows you to explore things that would otherwise be difficult to depict, and explore themes in a more accessible way.
I think they also said that they had to work hard to make it clear that whilst the taboo depicted in the episode was obviously allegorical for homosexuality, that in order for this to work, they needed to make it clear within the text of the episode that from the characters' perspective, the taboo was around intimacy with a partner from a past life, not homosexuality.
You forget how recently gay rights were achieved and normalized.
Except now fascists are trying to undo it, along with the rights of black people and other minorities.
Lol, yeah...... I don't think too many people on this site are old enough to remember just how anti gay the 90's were. This was literally one of the first depictions of lesbians kissing to be publicly televised in the US. I was living in the south at the time and they edited it out of the show.
Interracial couples weren't allowed to marry until 1967. Women weren't allowed to have credit cards or their own bank accounts until 1974. Gay couples weren't allowed to marry until 2015......
Most of the people in Congress are old enough to have witnessed all of this progress in their lifetime, and a lot of them are working as hard as possible to undue it all.
Girls gone wild came out in 1997. Girls were kissing and having sex in college long before that.
This scene in DS9 was pure fan service. Sexy women kissing for the pleasure of men. Trying to couch it as a gay rights thing is pretty silly. They didn’t get married to each other on the show and they both had male love interests.
Girls gone wild came out in 1997. Girls were kissing and having sex in college long before that.
Porn does not equate to public acceptance...... There's been gay porn since cameras became a thing, that doesn't mean the majority of Americans would be fine with it in their homes.
This scene in DS9 was pure fan service. Sexy women kissing for the pleasure of men.
The important part is that it was played on a publicly accessible network and a show many people watched with their families. Not every first ice breaker is a deep piece of art, but it often allows for shows later down the line to improve on the subject without taking as much heat.
Also......"In the first draft, Dax's former partner was written as male, but after this was changed, the story was cleared through studio executives. The Trill taboo was intended to be an allegory for homosexuality and homophobia."
It was purposely changed as a commentary on homophobia.
You’re not wrong that they cleared it with the network (they had to clear everything with the network). What you’re missing is that the execution of the scene, what we actually saw on screen, was pure titillation. It was sex and sex sold to a heterosexual (predominantly white) male audience.
You’d have a much better case if it were 2 men kissing. Jonathan Frakes wanted to do that for TNG! He was shut down completely.
What you’re missing is that the execution of the scene, what we actually saw on screen, was pure titillation. It was sex and sex sold to a heterosexual (predominantly white) male audience.
You could make the same claim about Kirk Uhura.... Just because it doesn't fit your individual standards doesn't mean it's not significant.
It was sex and sex sold to a heterosexual (predominantly white) male audience.
Again... I don't think you really understand just how conservative America was about gay relationships in the 90s. Just because it was what you labeled as sexy, does not mean that conservative America was highly critical of it.
You’d have a much better case if it were 2 men kissing. Jonathan Frakes wanted to do that for TNG! He was shut down completely.
Just because one minority gets representation doesn't mean that a different minority suffers from it. You can both be happy for lesbian representation and disappointment for the lack of gay male representation.
No, Uhura is clearly more than a sex appeal character. That role would fall to Janice Rand.
I grew up in the 90s. I understand it perfectly well. We had everything from Elton John to RuPaul. We were a long, long way from the days of Paul Lynde and the wink wink nudge nudge approach.
You can both be happy for lesbian representation
That scene is not lesbian representation, it’s two straight women kissing for the benefit of the audience. It’s 100% shot from a straight male gaze perspective.
Uhura is clearly more than a sex appeal character. That role would fall to Janice Rand.
Ahh.... And dax is nothing but a piece of meat? They hinted at a same sex relationship in the first season, "rejoined" was just the culmination of that plot.
You're just belittling it because both women were attractive.
grew up in the 90s. I understand it perfectly well. We had everything from Elton John
Elton only just came out publicly in the mid 90s and no one outside of the lgbtq scene really knew anything about RuPaul.
That scene is not lesbian representation,
I mean, I guess you're entitled to having an incorrect opinion?
"Writers on Deep Space Nine had previously hinted at a potential same-sex relationship in the first season episode "Dax", when Jadzia Dax says goodbye to Enina Tandro, a former lover of Dax's previous male host, Curzon. The first take of the scene resulted in a situation in which it was unclear whether Dax and Enina were about to kiss. It was decided at the time that it was not appropriate, although the writers had hoped that there would be a time when the viewers would accept such a relationship. This theme was eventually realized in "Rejoined".[12] Allen Kwan has argued that Deep Space Nine is the only series of Star Trek that resists the heteronormativity typical of the franchise at the time, citing both "Rejoined" and the Mirror Universe episodes as examples"
100% shot from a straight male gaze perspective.
It was the 90's..... And the first lesbian scene on television, of course it's not going to be perfect. However, the scene isn't salacious, nor is it driven by sex. I'd say the only thing that could be interpreted as "sexy" is the actresses being both attractive. But to boil the entire scene down to their looks is just objectifying the women in the scene.
I just don't agree with any of the point you're trying to make.
Dax is literally a worm living inside Jadzia’s body. Basically an alien parasite that evolved into a mutualism relationship instead.
Jadzia is more than a sex appeal of course. I’m talking about one scene, not her whole character.
If you look at her entire character it’s pretty clear that at no point is she living as a lesbian, closeted or otherwise. All of her interactions with male characters have romantic or at least flirtatious overtones (some unrequited), except with Sisko who she treats as an old friend (and he refers to her as old man). Her only major romantic relationship that takes place during the running of the show is her romance and marriage to Worf.
Furthermore, I take exception to quotes from the show’s writing staff. The writers’ goals and intentions literally do not matter. Only what appears in the show as it aired (“the text”).
Just as we shouldn’t pay any attention to what JK Rowling says now (about Dumbledore’s sexuality or other issues), so too should we ignore what the DS9 writers have said since.
Oh and by the way, I’ve known about RuPaul since the 90s and I am not in the community. He reached #2 on the billboard hot dance music chart with Supermodel, recorded in 1992.
Dax is literally a worm living inside Jadzia’s body. Basically an alien parasite that evolved into a mutualism relationship instead.
That was the intention of the writers....Trills are forced to live multiple lives and we're not forced into a gender normative.
Jadzia is more than a sex appeal of course. I’m talking about one scene, not her whole character.
So with Uhura we're evaluating her whole character, but with Jadzia we're not?
If you look at her entire character it’s pretty clear that at no point is she living as a lesbian, closeted or otherwise. All of her interactions with male characters have romantic or at least flirtatious overtones (some unrequited), except with Sisko who she treats as an old friend (and he refers to her as old man). Her only major romantic relationship that takes place during the running of the show is her romance and marriage to Worf.
Seems like you've never heard of a bi or pansexual? That or you're just obsessed with some kind of lesbian purity test?
Imo any representation that put lgbtq people in a positive light or made the average American even slightly empathetical to their character was both positive and rare.
Furthermore, I take exception to quotes from the show’s writing staff. The writers’ goals and intentions literally do not matter. Only what appears in the show as it aired (“the text”).
I don't think you get to decide that? Intention and context matters to most people.
Just as we shouldn’t pay any attention to what JK Rowling says now (about Dumbledore’s sexuality or other issues), so too should we ignore what the DS9 writers have said since.
Lol, I think there's a bit of a difference between a writer retconning their work for publicity and writer explaining their process and intent. Trying to conflate the two is just a dishonest argument.
Oh and by the way, I’ve known about RuPaul since the 90s and I am not in the community. He reached #2 on the billboard hot dance music chart with Supermodel, recorded in 1992.
Number #2 on the billboard hot dance, aka #45 on the billboard top 100. Meaning still not very popular to the average household.
We're not talking about your experiences... We're talking about America as a whole in the 90s, which was still very anti-gay in most every way imaginable.
Idk, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree at this point. I don't really feel like continuing talking to someone who is obviously not very inclusive on the subject.
I don’t think we actually disagree all that much. Our main point of disagreement is on the degrees of stuff. It seems I think the 90s was way less extreme (on the bad side) than you do, and that Star Trek was also way less extreme than you do (on the progressive side).
To be honest, you’ve made it sound like the 90s America was pretty much like Saudi Arabia and that Star Trek as depicted was the full realization of Gene Roddenberry’s post-race free love communist utopia. The reality of both was far more moderate. I’d even argue that there’s a lot more anti-gay sentiment and hostility around now than there was in the 90s.
It seems I think the 90s was way less extreme (on the bad side) than you do
You mean the decade don't ask don't tell was put into place because a gay sailor was stomped to death by his co-worker? Or the decade that consistently allowed men to get away with torture and murder because the victim was gay?
Star Trek was also way less extreme than you do (on the progressive side).
I never claimed it was extremely progressive, I just said that any form of representation is important when there hasn't ever been any.
To be honest, you’ve made it sound like the 90s America was pretty much like Saudi Arabia
I'm guessing you never lived in the American south? It's nice that you grew up in a liberal oasis, but Ive seen friends completely disowned by their families for their sexuality. I've had friends beaten to an inch of their life after being outed, and that happened in the 00s.
Your experience is not universal, or even that common.
Star Trek as depicted was the full realization of Gene Roddenberry’s post-race free love communist utopia
The only thing I've done is state that the first non salacity lesbian kiss to be broadcasted on public television was significant.
I’d even argue that there’s a lot more anti-gay sentiment and hostility around now than there was in the 90s.
That may be the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. Gay people literally have the right to get married now. Don't ask don't tell is no longer a policy of the US military. The aids crisis isn't pouring fuel on the fire of bigots.
Do you not remember Queer Nation having to be formed in a response to increase violence against the community? Or the fact that the expansion of sexual orientation to hate crimes was in response to the rise in crimes against the LGBT community in the 90s?
There's been a rise in antitrans sentiment, but even in conservative spaces there's more acceptance for traditional gay relationships.
Interracial couples weren't allowed to marry until 1967. Women weren't allowed to have credit cards or their own bank accounts until 1974.
Interracial marriage was made legal nationally in 1967 but much longer outside of the Deep South. The bank account bit is just wrong. Credit cards is true.
Interracial marriage was made legal nationally in 1967 but much longer outside of the Deep South.
Yes, just like gay marriage was legal in some states before it was nationally. This does not make my statement incorrect, nor does your statement really add anything to the original claim.
The bank account bit is just wrong.
Again, you're being unnecessarily pedantic. Some women were allowed to have bank accounts, but often had to have the permission of their husband or a male co-signer. Most women faced hurdles that made it difficult or impossible to obtain a bank account by themselves.
Oh believe me I don't. I grew up in the era where "gay" was the ultimate swear word, it just meant anything bad.
But lesbians were awesome.
Chicks making out on tv was the norm, but generally it was presented as "straight" ladies performing for male enjoyment.
As long as it was for gooning and going related activities, it wasn't political.
So much has changed......
Women kissing is political
As is dogs barking and wind blowing
God damnit
Uhura-Kirk in 68 was very political too, interracial TV kiss (not strictly the first).
Whats interesting to me is that in both cases the only reason they could get away with it was the appeal to white cis men.
If it was a black guy and a white woman it would have caused riots.
If it was two dudes it wouldn't have made it to air.
We should keep in mind that a lot of the progress we've made the last 30 years has been exploiting cis male sexuality. Maybe we could've avoided the far right resurgence if Netflix had a hit tv show about a sexy Syrian woman with a thing for blondes living in Berlin.
World is a fuck.
God had nothing to do with it - humans damned themselves.
They kissed politically ...
This is only political as a result of trash humans inability to let people live their own lives in peace.
Can't wait for the day that my sex life is no one else's business and when I can love who I want without other people having feelings. It's my life. Back off!
Remember the TNG episode that introduced the Trill that was all about gender swapping?
I'm not jealous you're jealous
I just rewatched that episode yesterday and had the same thought, op.
I'll be in my bunk.
Isn't a lesbian kiss episode (as well as a boxing match episode) a sign that a show has jumped the shark?
Not that this scene didn't live rent free in my head for years - just asking.
Can be, but this wasnt, and star trek is kind of an exception to... Definitely the former, sometimes the latter. Political SciFi travel/not-quite-anthology shows can get away with a lot of this kind of shit.