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Yeah, thanks, been to all these places already,
sleepincluded (exceptsetsidin Wayland but I doubt that's the crucial issue). And yes it does work, sort of - the problem is that the apps exit spontaneously at some point later - sometimes hours, sometimes days - which absolutely does not happen when I launch them in whatever "official" way. In the end I just gave up. Needing asleephack is a bit of a red flag after all.