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Upvote/Downvote/likes is the cancer that ruined it all. Before that one actually had to speak in support or against any given ideas. Now people can assume anything is true/false based on an arbitrary engagement number.
That lead to a lot more back and forth arguments as people had to get in the last word or people chiming in with agreements because that was the only way to see if multiple people agreed.
I like forums for informational discussions that don't have a ton of back and forth. Forums are better for hobbies in my experience.
Upvote-downvote is a great reaction to all the trolls. combined withan algorithm they can surface the good stuff and alert moderators to garbage. Algorithms are wrong in many places, but that is the implementation that is bad not the idea itself
Lemmys culture of downvoting well written things you disagree with is a problem though. So long as nothing is done about that you can't make a good algorithm. idealy you would have the guts to upvote things you disagree with, but at least we need people to stop using downvote to disagree - respond with reason if you disagree.
They create a similarly big problem though. Every group has a natural tendency towards members increasingly feeling like they are walking on eggshells with ever more precise purity tests, and any dissent gets hidden.
Well written is subjective. Something can be long and filled with evidence and still be gibberish or in bad faith.
You also have to have a limit of how much effort you are willing to spend in any given conflict.
Furthermore, trying to change human behaviour in that way rather than finding a system that better accomplishes the goal seems like an impossible goal.
A well written post that is completely wrong, possibly offensive, and a net negative to the conversation doesn't deserve immunity to down votes just because of how it was written.
A down vote conveys disagreement and if everyone who disagrees responds then there will be complaints of people getting dog piled. Down votes means letting off some steam for some people, sometimes as a counter to a crappy post or comment getting positive votes they don't think it deserves.
There are also a very tiny number of times that I have seen down votes on something that didn't deserve it. Overall the vast, vast majority of votes are up votes even for stuff that doesn't deserve it and a few down votes doesn't ruin anything. The system works extremely well, even if people have a wide variety of thresholds for up voting and down voting.
What else should a downvote be if not for showing disagreement (Factual or sentiment) with a post?
I got downvotes for typos. Yes grammar nazis exist.
I upvote things I disagree with if they contribute to the discourse in some way.
Is entirely too vague and subjective.
It's vague on purpose, what contributes is entirely contextual. It would take a lot to explain in detail and I don't see a reason to spend the time when a high level summary gets the idea across.
You're thinking moderators.
Moderators universally suuuuuuuuck.
Community is better than a few gatekeepers.
If only we had a system where anyone could report anyone... Maybe have a link that says 'report'... And we could have it on every topic, and every reply, so it would be easy to do... And after a number of reports by users of sufficient account age and in good standing, the reported comment would be moved to a quarantine so if the admins are unavailable, the forum can operate on autopilot to keep the users safe...
Ah well, nobody would ever implement that wild idea... sigh
I remember a couple forums had a "thank" feature or something similar that would show, with your username, your approval for a post without having to make an additional post about it. No downvotes though, you had to speak up to be a hater. I think that was a fine middle ground.
Yes, I also think the voting system can make things worse in some ways. On a traditional forum the one and only way to show you like or dislike something was to leave a reply. With a voting system a lot of the "engagement" is just a number that moves up or down. It's also way too easy to slip into the unhealthy mindset of mining karma because monkey brain like number go up. Granted on Lemmy it's a bit better since you don't have a single cumulative score.
At least unlike reddit, lemmy doesn't punish you for getting downvotes.
It absolutely does. Your post gets hidden, and you have a higher likelyhood of moderator interaction. It is less punishing though.
Id argue nested comments are equally as bad as voting. Nesting comments just encourages bickering without any breaks in the chain at all and allow you to attack or even dogpile one specific person and comment instead of having to make your own point on your own comment and see if that has any conversarional merit other than tearing down someone else.