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You don't get to be a Confederate and a 'proud American' (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 year ago by PugJesus@lemmy.world to c/shermanposting@lemmy.world

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Confederate States were fighting against America, quite explicitly. It wasn't even a matter of "The Royalists vs. the Parliamentarians" sort of thing where the sides disagreed on who should rule America. The Confederates wanted their land to no longer be American, and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans in the attempt.

[+] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee -12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It was an American civil war between two sides of Americans, the Union and the Confederacy.

It wasn’t even a matter of “The Royalists vs. the Parliamentarians” sort of thing where the sides disagreed on who should rule America. The Confederates wanted their land to no longer be American, and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans in the attempt.

Separatists and in this case especially those with family history of separatism can have those different identities, as part of the grander "nation" and that of regional separatist one. I haven't heard of CSA having a separate sentiment from that, thinking them completely separate from the American identity that encompassed both prior to the civil war. From what I know it was more of a political affair than feeling like the south was a separate "people".

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

"O I'm a good old rebel,

Now that's just what I am.

For this "fair land of freedom"

I do not care a damn.

I'm glad I fought against it,

I only wish we'd won,

And I don't want no pardon

For anything I done.

I hates the Constitution,

This great republic too,

I hates the Freedmans' Buro,

In uniforms of blue.

I hates the nasty eagle,

With all his braggs and fuss,

The lyin' thievin' Yankees,

I hates 'em wuss and wuss.

I hates the Yankees nation

And everything they do,

I hates the Declaration,

Of Independence, too.

I hates the glorious Union-

'Tis dripping with our blood-

I hates their striped banner,

I fought it all I could

I rode with Robert E. Lee,

For three year near about,

Got wounded in four places

And starved at Point Lookout

I caught the rheumatism

A' campin' in the snow,

But I killed a chance o' Yankees

I'd like to kill some mo'.

Three hundred thousand Yankees

Is stiff in Southern dust,

We got three hundred thousand

Before they conquered us.

They died of Southern fever

And Southern steel and shot,

I wish they was three million

Instead of what we got.

I can't take up my musket

And fight 'em now no more,

But I ain't going to love 'em,

Now that is sarten sure,

And I don't want no pardon

For what I was and am.

I won't be reconstructed,

And I don't care a damn."

The idea of a Southern nation was very real, as was the conception of the North as an entirely separate cultural entity. Sherman, writing to some of his Southern friends just before the war, references the idea of Southerners as one people and Northerners as another, even in attempting to dissuade them from secession. You can find plenty of letters that express this sentiment in one form or another throughout the war, though Northern politicians rarely gave voice to it. For obvious reasons. Even today the sentiment in the South lingers in some of the more... backwards areas.

[+] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee -7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This bitter post-war poem makes a separation between the South and North, with the "Yankees" they feel are running the United States. It doesn't to me to say the Southerners weren't American. Both the Northern and Southern identities seem to me to be under the umbrella of being American.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"The anti-slavery party contend that slavery is wrong in itself, and the [Union, American] Government is a consolidated national democracy. We of the South contend that slavery is right, and that this is a confederate Republic of sovereign States. [explicitly rejecting the description of the American government as the government of a single nation]"

You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it … Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail. [Sherman, describing the South and the North as separate peoples even while still under the unified government]

[T]he contest is really for empire on the side of the North, and for independence on that of the South, and in this respect we recognize an exact analogy between the North and the Government of George III, and the South and the Thirteen Revolted Provinces. These opinions…are the general opinions of the English nation. [The London Times, showing that even amongst foreigners the idea of a Southern nation as distinct from the North were mainstream enough to be understood and embraced]

"And now with my latest writing and utterance, and with what will [be] near to my latest breath, I here repeat, & would willingly proclaim, my unmitigated hatred to Yankee rule—to all political, social and business connections with Yankees, & to the perfidious, malignant, & vile Yankee race." [Edward Ruffin]

[+] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee -10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You are making a case that the North and South felt separate from each other. And I haven't doubted that. I'm saying that both of those are under the umbrella of being American. Being American isn't just one of those, but rather encompassed both. In your examples they're specifically contrasting those two, not contrasting Southerners with Americans but rather Southerners with Northerners.

I'm not sure if you feel the things you said show that it was Southerner vs American as two separate things or if you've misunderstood what I've said. But they only show the North/South divide and not one between Americans and Southerners.

"The anti-slavery party contend that slavery is wrong in itself, and the Government is a consolidated national democracy. We of the South contend that slavery is right, and that this is a confederate Republic of sovereign States."

It's rejecting the idea "national democracy" in favour of "confederate republic of sovereign states". So it is rejecting the anti-slavery party's idea of how the government should be. More context would help, since the term "national democracy" doesn't bring up much. I'd wager it means "the whole country decides together" vs "states decide for themselves". Southerners were very much in favour of the latter.

[Sherman, describing the South and the North as separate peoples even while still under the unified government]

It seems to be talking of "people of the South" not as an actual separate nation from Americans but as a grouping separate from "people of the North". And it also doesn't use the term American. None of your quotes do, actually.

[The London Times, showing that even amongst foreigners the idea of a Southern nation as distinct from the North were mainstream enough to be understood and embraced]

It is just describing a situation where one part wants to separate from an empire. It doesn't contrast the term American with that of a Southerner or Confederate even. Not only is it lacking context such as the rest of the text but also more importantly the author. And historical context of the UK being pro-CSA to weaken the USA, so having a reason to spur on and support their separatism.

“And now with my latest writing and utterance, and with what will [be] near to my latest breath, I here repeat, & would willingly proclaim, my unmitigated hatred to Yankee rule—to all political, social and business connections with Yankees, & to the perfidious, malignant, & vile Yankee race.” [Edward Ruffin]

Yankee is a word for the Northerners. It's again the same North vs South, not American vs Southerner.

[–] Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You uh.......you stupid?

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee -5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Solid argument

[–] matthewmercury@reddthat.com 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I concur, you estupid

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

I would've rather had a discussion about this since there seem to be a disagreement but I can't really expect everyone to bother with that.