this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2025
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Patriotism is great because patriotism is about loving what a country stands for.
America no longer stands for freedom and justice for all. But anyone who loved those ideas before can still stand for them now.
False. Patriotism is simping for a state even if it hurts you.
The way we defeat fascism is by rallying around shared ideas and ideals. And not by being an island of one.
Yes. And I am arguing which option is the "island of one" is Patriotism.
Nah, your argument is that you're a cool edge lord who rejects any association with other people if it means risking your purity.
The whole point of rejecting a national identity is to form a broader human identity. But instead of that people seem to take leftism as another kind of American libertarian individualism were the goal is to reject being apart of anything bigger than yourself.
Believing in shared ideals like freedom and justice for all means rejecting a state when it abandons those ideals.
As much as I tell you I voted for Kamala, and beg you you to say Zohran Mamdani's name and acknowledge him as a Democrat in your unrolled "vote blue no matter who" screeds, you're gonna project that "purity" onto me?
Do you want to actually unpack what I actually believe to understand the absurdity of your statement, or do you wanna be a useless shitlib that knows "you're right"?
Good. Glad to hear you're not that kind of "patriot".
You're on the right track. Think Globally, act Locally.
What if I told you that any genuinely Left Irish Republicanism, even from the Irish Diaspora, requires calling for a Free Palestine? We have arrived at that same human collective conclusion while allowing for Pride in our own identity to participate in cementing that.
Mamdani is a socialist like myself. He's using the Democrat party because it's the most useful tool available to him. But he's not a neoliberal Democrat.
I'm a registered independent. I'm not this neoliberal you've concocted to debate with. I know Mamdani's got a lock on the Mayoral race as the Democratic nominee. And I don't gatekeep who is in the Democratic Party.
Lol, your argument is to refuse to vote for anyone who isn't as far left as Mamdani. You're not arguing to think globally or act locally. You're larping on the internet.
But you'll argue against voting for candidates who aren't fascists in future election. Even if that means the fascists will continue to genocide the people you pretend to care about. No thanks.
Again, I voted the same way you did. It was self defense. I'm pissed off at Democrats for using this to consistently concede towards the Right for decades, but I don't have the power to create a better choice. And further, I felt that every piece of rhetoric to bring comrades with me? Was taken from me by the liberals who wanted my vote.
How much of this was media "dissonance"? We really should unpack. Not to declare blame, but to prepare for it next time.
Comrade, we've been arguing from what is actually two sides of the same position. I'd rather focus on what's next than what's past for its own sake, and that's how you came off to me.
I'd rather focus on what gets people excited - Mamdani, rn.
If I may be permitted a moment to disappear up my own asshole: I just deleted several paragraphs unpacking something I'm going to describe as "post-anarcho-nihilism."
The Acceleration is locked in - just look at Texas flooding again. Again again. Use anything and everything you can for collective human dignity and survival.
And even I vote Blue, holding my nose the whole way. But sometimes I'll fall short in bringing sources of valid, quality info to my community about when its time to bring them to the ballot box for a holding-action on that deepening Acceleration.
What do you suggest we do better next time?
The acceleration stops when we stop letting things get worse. Things only get better when we learn from our mistakes and use that knowledge to make things better. We have to educate people. Part of that means accepting not voting for Harris was a mistake in 2024. Which if you don't have a problem with then there's not much to discuss there. It was other people in the comment section who were still needing that pointed out.
We're more than likely going to end up in a similar scenario, with an incrementally better neoliberal, in 2028 if we even get an election. And that's if Gavin Newsom doesn't end up being the candidate. I'm starting to think he's going to go full "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" and just run on being more fascist than the Rebuplicans. Regardless, we need socialists and progressives to co-opt the Democrat party from the current establishment, neoliberal Democrats and then win every election we can. That becomes harder to do the longer we're stuck in a christo-fascist dictatorship. Not to mention the damage to the planet and vulnerable communities all over the world in the meantime.
We need to support candidates like Mamdani. And not allow fascists to win when the choice is between them and a neoliberal. That's how we reduce the most harm in the short run and set the stage to have a socialist political revolution in the long run.
This has gotten me thinking how problematic a Newsom v DeSantis race could be in 2028. =(
That's how it starts, but it ends in the same hell. Once you decide your country stands for something, you inevitably stop seeing how it has failed at doing that thing for centuries.
For example, consider freedom and equality. The US had widespread slavery until the late 1800s, and even now the prison industrial slavery complex provides 100% slave labor, and most of the slaves are minorities. So when people talk about freedom and equality as a U.S. value, when they talk about the melting point, they have to pretend the slaves don't exist.
Another way of looking at it is, "You might say your country stands for this ideal, but when we find massive examples of it failing, then you're arguing with reality. You might wish your country stood for it, but it doesn't, at least not now. Quit lying to yourself."
This is a non-sequitur. There's nothing stopping someone from seeing what a country stands for and how it has failed to live up to those ideals. People can in fact walk and talk.
No one has to ignore our history or pretend the prison industrial complex doesn't exist to understand that we stood for equality. In fact, it's the other way around. It's the people who ignore and even rewrite our history who fail to understand America is a melting pot.
Except there are massive examples of it succeeding. The US ended slavery and gave voting rights to women. So it is your argument arguing with reality.
When we lose sight of the fact our country stood for something we end up in a nationalist christo-fascist dictatorship. Championing freedom and justice for all is how we stave off the division employed by fascists.
Pretending the US didn't stand for anything is an agreement with the fascists. They believe America has always been a white christian nation state and now it is one. Your argument is agreeing with their lie. The only way to defeat the fascists is to believe in the truth.
So if I read your comment correctly, everybody MAGA person is a real US partiot because your country stands for a corrupt, racist and predatory kleptocracy now. They sure love that.
You read the comment incorrectly. MAGAts are christo-fascist nationalists of course.
Sure. But christo-fascist nationalism is what the US stands for, now. This "freedom and justice for all" thing was always a myth. Now that the thin layer of decency that held everything more or less together is gone, fascism is the new normal and the MAGA shitstains are the true American patriots. I mean, they sure love that. And wjat else is patriotism?
No, now the US is a white nationalist, christo-fascist, techno-fedualist dictatorship. The US doesn't stand for anything. The US is now a tool for the wealthy to enrich themselves at our expense in a capacity we haven't seen since monopolies were busted.
This argument is ahistorical. The US extended rights to people of color and women.
The fascists are still fascists. All they do is hate. They don't love this country. The nation state is only ever a vehicle to terrorize, subjugate, and kill people.
This "freedom and justice for all is a myth" argument is the same as every other "America was never a democracy" argument. This argument is made by people who do not value freedom and justice for all or democracy. America's failings are a justification to destroy the country that has personally wronged them. They feel they've been morally tainted by association with the US and their only recourse is to burn a country of 340 million people to the ground to somehow redeem themselves. Not even to make something better and in some cases instead the goal is to end up in a red fascist dictatorship.
Nothing is good enough for them, no amount of social progress matters. Like in this case where, as usual, the argument pretends social movements didn't happen. People make these arguments because they've personally been made to feel morally uncomfortable. So everyone can die as far as they care.
Don't let people get away with this. The fascists took our democracy and freedoms away. The people who pretend those weren't real don't want us to have them either.
This user's argument is more of the same accelerationism that was rampant before, during, and after the 2024 election. Accelerationism benefits the fascists and thus is not anti-fascism. Part of the way we fight back against fascists is telling the truth. edit: typo
Are you kidding me?
Then:
What is it now?
Apart from that, you are projecting a bit much here. My point is not that you shouldn't take a stand against the fascist. On the contrary. But then do it right.
Don't be like them and run around with that patriotism bullshit. Don't pretend that your country was so great and free and fair and all. It never was. The rich always made themselves richer. Sexism, racism and classism where always a thing there. It got better, because the people stood up took their rights against push back, against violence and murder. But even in it's best days, the US was far away from equality.
Fight for equality, for fairness, for freedom and all that, but stop twisting that into what you want to make other people believe is some core value of your country and the only real patriotic thing or some shit.
Read what I wrote. The US used to stand for freedom and justice for all and the US no longer does.
Your argument is beat for beat the same argument so it's not projection.
Your argument agrees with the fascists in that "America was never a democracy". The fascists just take it further and say we were always a white christian nation. Stop running around with the accelerationist bullshit.
So your argument concedes it is the same accelerationist argument. Your argument even clarifies it's wrong at the same time. Cool.
I am going to keep refuting accelerationist arguments. You can try to bullshit in your argument all you want.
Fascism will fail. Accelerationism will fail. People are going to keep telling the truth.