Games
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Also explains why Steam is still a 32-bit binary and didn't get ARM port on any platform.
I think the point is that with this kind of upkeep costs it's hard to argue that Steam sales cut is fair, especially given near-monopoly in PC gaming space.
It's actually pretty easy to argue it's fair once you look at everything. Steam offers a shit ton of resources for that 30%, including hosting, distribution, patching, workshop, etc. And that's not even getting into the fact that the dev can get all of that AND get steam keys that they can distribute themselves (meaning valve doesn't get a cut of that) that still utilizes the same infra.
I wish I could find it, but I recently saw a video of Thor (@piratesoftware, does his own game dev and used to work for Blizzard) talking about this and going into even more detail than I can remember at the moment.
As an Indie dev, a 30% cut of profit could be the death of my one man studio (if I ever get around to actually starting it)
Ok, so then handle all of that yourself at cost. Which will lead to the death of your studio faster?
Seriously though, a $15 game selling just 100k copies is still $1m to you (before taxes) and has no upkeep. You do all that steam does yourself, you're going to drown in operations costs and upkeep time.
I agree with you but at the same time I feel like I should point out that this is the China fallacy, where there's a billion people in China and if you could just tap into even 0.3% of their market you would make bank.
While it's technically true, the fallacy behind it overshadows the difficulty of acquiring that percentage of the market. The grand majority of games released never become cash positive, and over 50% of games on steam alone never make more than $4,000.
https://vginsights.com/insights/article/infographic-indie-game-revenues-on-steam
This is not an issue with distribution, it's an issue with marketing and market fit, and accompanied by the base fact of that if you're the kind of person who is good at making games, it would be a rarity for you to also be the kind of person that's good at marketing the games you made.
Those are two entirely different wheelhouses that function best with two entirely different personality types, and that's not covering all of the different disciplines that you need to make a game or run a game making company in the first place.
Use Steams competitors then if you don't want to pay Steams cut. If you're getting less overall from them, that tells you all you need to know about the validity of Steams fees
I think you missed my point. I am in favor of steam and valve by far, my quibble is with the idea that anyone can sell 100,000 copies of a $15 game.
For every Stardew Valley there are thousands of other games no one has ever heard of and that almost no one bought.
By all means though, make great games. I'll be buying them on steam.
Ah fair. My reading comprehension also failed there because I thought you were the same person the person you responded to was responding to was (Person I thought you were - Person you responded to - you - me: if that makes what I said make more sense). I guess my response though is that discoverability is going to be an issue for any new game regardless of whether someone chooses to put their game on Steam or not (and I'd argue that not putting their game on Steam would negatively impact their discoverability, hence another point in favour of Steams cut)
edit: (I actively hate Epic though, so consider taking their money as losing the possibility of ever getting mine. I am NOT for console exclusive bs on the PC marketplace, and Epic is actively trying to make that a thing. So if you except money from epic to go exclusive on their store, I'm only ever going to pirate your game, if I can even be bothered to play it at all)
The cut would be less if competition was possible. I will bet my arm, first child and souls on this.
And you'd lose all of that.
Competition isn't possible? EGS is an active competitor that only takes 12% and they still can't get fucking anywhere because their store fucking sucks. GoG exists and also takes 30%, their store/launcher are ok, but they don't offer nearly as much for that 30%, but they make up for that with drm free games. There are other minor players out there, so competition is definitely possible, but not one of them offers a comparable product.
The only way steam would lower their cut is if someone came along and made a game store that actually offered a significant portion of the services steam offered and was about as good but also had a lower cut of sales. But good luck finding someone who can do all of that and also takes less than 30%.
You don't seem to understand what a monopoly is. Having some small competition that's not ever going to threaten you because you can leverage your dominant position is also a case of a monopoly.
Epic poured billions of Fortnite money with little to show for it. How is anyone going to compete with a platform that most gamers have all of their games on? This is why they need to be broken up or brought to order via regulations. Companies are not your friends.
Success is not illegal. Valve isn't buying up smaller competing storefronts, or paying off developers for exclusivity, or burying competition in legal fees and prepared 80-page lawsuits. The only thing holding back real competition is the competing platforms being dogshit.
I was excited for the EGS when it was announced. Then it turned out to be a garbage platform with the shady exclusivity deals that turned Steam into an ad platform for games that had been poached by Epic. Valve responded to it with the Steam Deck and Proton.
Leveraging dominant position to keep your monopoly is illegal even in the US.
What are they doing to leverage their dominant position?
At some point you're so entrenched in the market you don't have to do anything anymore. I was quite surprised that Valve somehow evaded EU Digital Markets Act gatekeeper criteria.
Ok but you made a claim that they were leveraging their market position to maintain a monopoly. So please describe how they are doing that in any way shape or form.
There you go: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpwwyj6v24xo
Just because someone claims something to sue a company does not mean it’s true. You gotta go through the whole court process and prove it.
I’ve never seen any publisher claim this, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. But it sure doesn’t sound like that has anything to do with being a monopoly. Epic, GoG, Ubisoft, etc. could all do the exact same thing.
Anyway, thanks for the link. I was not the one to downvote you on your last comment. You did what I asked.
I give up. Are you an American or something?
At this point, their cut is just about mathematically fair, given how little value customers get from buying games most other places and how much value they get from Steam. Then that money got funneled back into decoupling PC gaming from Microsoft and making probably the only mass produced handheld gaming system that's open enough to let you opt out of their ecosystem. I'd be really curious as to how many games on Steam even have ARM builds, because I'll bet it's a very low number, and that would likely make the juice not worth the squeeze.
Their cut is mathematically fair but the inputs for this formula are mostly pain tolerance levels of consumers and producers. I meant fair for having a monopoly. Either you're a utility or need to be broken up so that actual competition can take place.
Steam Deck and Proton killed Linux gaming because nobody bothers to do native ports. While I don't agree with that approach it kinda works but it's not that Valve does this because they like Linux. They're scared of losing their monopoly in case Windows changes too much.
There are ARM native games on Mac (Disco Elysium for example) and Steam has no issues with them. Not having ARM client though means that you're running a dynamically recompiling web browser through a translation layer resulting in terrible performance.
Pain tolerance levels? The biggest pain points I have with Steam are that it's not universally DRM-free (which is why I shop GOG first) and that their multiplayer servers go down for 15 minutes during maintenance windows once or twice per week. Native Linux ports were not going to become more common prior to Proton; they were on the fast track to becoming less common, especially given how many more games are now released every year, and Proton has the added benefit of adding Linux support to games where it was just never going to feasibly happen otherwise.
It's both. That fear of losing their market position is exactly how a functioning market is supposed to work. Competition is supposed to come in and outdo Valve. EA looked like they were interested for a little while back when they launched Origin, but they changed their minds. Epic says they're interested now, but they only want sellers and not customers. It's not a monopoly, legally, when they attained their market position by just being better than everyone else.
And I wonder how many more there are out there. Because if that number is low enough, it may just not be worth it to bother. I'd imagine it's a nightmare to have to support Apple through all of their standards that they dictate at their business partners. Valve went through the trouble of making a Vulkan->Metal translation layer, since Apple refused to support open standards, and then Apple retired x64 on their machines shortly afterward.
Pain tolerance to prices, how good the support is, how snappy the app is etc. Within the space of game marketplaces they're average and that's because every one of them kind of sucks. If Epic was first to monopolize PC game marketplaces people would be defending them like they defend Valve now because they want all of their games in one place.
Linux gaming was stable before Proton. It was never big but mainstream titles were getting released. These days there's nothing. Titles could be broken at any moment by a developer and nobody will have any responsibility to fix it. I very much doubt that a for profit company does anything because they "like" something like Linux. They're there to make money, period.
I'm not saying Valve should port their games to ARM or update them, it's up to them and they don't seem to be interested in developing games all that much these days. My point wad that plenty of games run via Rosetta2 fine. Steam doesn't run fine because essentially it's a web browser and that's where you can say that 80 developers might not be enough to support this money printing machine.
No, people accept Steam because of the proven track record, values of their leadership, their hardware and the work they do with Linux.
Please.
EGS would have all this in that hypothetical scenario, why wouldn't it?
The only reason you don't see the price as a pain point is that you refuse to see that about 50% of that goes to companies that make billions in profit while people like you and me can't afford rent.
Valve is not your landlord. They made a good place to buy video games. And come on, now; it's 30% at most to Valve (which is less than brick and mortar before it) and then some more to the government.
30% for Valve, another 10 to 20% for the publisher...
Guess where the billionaires work?
There isn't always a publisher. Sometimes the publisher owns them outright, and the devs will only see a salary in either case. There are only a handful of publishers that are worth more than a billion dollars and therefore run by billionaires, and they account for very few game releases in a given year on Steam these days. There's a lot of nuance to this. And quite frankly, if a game I want to play comes from a billionaire's company, I'm going to buy the game, they're going to get some of my money, and I won't feel bad about that.
Billionaires, multimillionaires, they're all part of the problem. Right now you're defending the people making you pay more for stuff than it's worth.
If you sold something for $10 that hundreds of thousands of people wanted enough to buy it, you'd be a multimillionaire too. The only way you fund a development team with a handful of people working there is with multiple millions of dollars.
Oh so Gabe's six yachts, that's for development purposes?
It's irrelevant, is what it is. When you make something a whole bunch of people want to pay money for, you get to buy yourself nice things. I find a yacht to be a pretty wasteful use of money, but when I handed over thousands of dollars for hundreds of Steam games, it's because we were both getting something good out of that transaction.
And you're doing that while your peers are starving.
Do you realize that you're the victim defending their abuser in this relationship? You'll never been one of them, wake the fuck up.
I'm not in an adversarial relationship with the people who sell me video games for fun. Every time you buy a video game from an indie dev on their own web site, that too is money you could have used to buy food for someone who's starving.
When I buy from an indie dev directly the money goes to the person accomplishing the work to make the product I'm buying, not a bunch of rich guys that have so much money they don't know what to do with it.
So what happens when that indie dev sells multiple millions of copies and has more money than they know what to do with? The game is just free for everyone else once it reaches a critical mass? Your definition is so arbitrary. Rich people get rich by selling things people want.
That's when wealth taxation comes into play.
If this was true, games would cost 18% less on EGS because they only take 12%. Shockingly enough, they cost the same.
Because the same games sell for more elsewhere (also, funnily enough, we're seeing tons of info on Valve because they're getting sued for including a non compete clause in their contract to prevent games from being sold for less elsewhere), that's an issue for the market as a whole and doesn't apply to video games only. You're paying too much for your food, for your gas, for your housing, for your clothes, for every fucking thing!
Profit shares for distributors will need to be regulated and wealth tax will need to be applied.
Show us price comparisons between storefronts. Prove what you're saying. Full retail price, not sales prices.
That's my fucking point, the whole distribution chain needs to be regulated to stop distributors pocketing so much of our money when they're accomplishing barely any of the actual work. It's not a Valve problem, it's a capitalism problem!
So you think grocery chains are making record profit every year without it impacting your wallet or something?
Still waiting on those price comparisons.
Killed Linux gaming? I hard disagree with that. Yes developers may not do Native ports as often anymore but I would much rather have the ability to play games that are not considered a native Port because the ocean is so much vaster. If anything proton in the steam deck put Linux on the map, prior to the deck AAA titles you would never see running on Linux you barely saw AA titles on it. However with the introduction of the steam deck in proton we now have companies moving closer to at least making sure their game is compatible with the deck which is one step closer to allowing it to be Linux compatible. It allows you to take your windows games and for the most part just be able to play it without having to have the studio spend as much for it as they would with a native port, because that's the number one thing that holds them back from making a native Port the lack of market share. I would not have switched off of Windows if this was not the case because that was basically the only thing that was holding me on Windows still was the lack of decent gaming support
Let's take Elden Ring for example, it plays beautifully I haven't had a single problem playing it. They weren't going to release a Linux branch but they made sure it was steamdeck compatible, which meant that it was proton compatible which then allows me to play this amazing game on my Debian 12, a game that otherwise would not have worked because none of the other translation layers function with it. I notice zero difference in performance it plays flawlessly, but I would not have been able to play this game otherwise. It might as well be a native Port because I've had zero issues with functionality.
The Factorio development blog has a piece on developing Linux-native. Basically there's ONE GUY who works on the LInux-native version, and it's a lot more challenging than people think -- from managing and linking dependencies, to working around GNOME's monumentally stupid decision to expect client-side decorations from all apps. It's simply more worthwhile to ensure that a game works well on WIne/Proton.