Anarchism

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db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com

Militancy isn't joyful. Revolution is hard. (www.youtube.com)

submitted 1 week ago by db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It must be windy that high up in your soapbox.

And people on the left has been predicting the collapse of capitalism since before WW1

I don't mean to tell you, but the world order completely changed after WW1 and WW2. In case you missed the millions of deaths, the years of poverty and famine, the collapse of colonialist powers and the rise of the USA as a global hegemon. The system DID very much collapse, and a new one was built in its place. I never promised that anarchists would be the one who will come on top in a collapse, I merely said that it's during a collapse when people's minds are more malleable to new forms of organizing.

It is not nihilistic to turn away from magical thinking... especially if said magical thinking has delivered no tangible results for more than eight (that's 8) decades now and still counting.

It's wild to accuse people of suggesting a radical change of being ineffective because people are too propagandized to perform said radical change.

If you believe that the libertarian left has no option but to tackle the future with the same woefully orthodox theory and consequently misguided praxis... well now that is what I would call nihilistic.

This "misguided praxis" is the only thing that has shown it can work when put into praxis. Whether it can be put into praxis is an entirely different thing and what we agitate for.

I mean... doesn't it ring any alarm bells for you that the two libertarian projects in recent history that anarchists got most excited about - Rojava and Chiappas - wasn't instigated by anarchists at all but by tankies that decided to dump Marxist-Leninist orthodoxy in the rubbish bin and go back to the drawing board?

No? Why would it ring alarm bells? I'm not there to tell you for sure how much anarchist influence there was and neither were you. I'm just happy they functioned in a more libertarian approach and once again proved that libertarian socialist approaches work when left to do their own thing.

Are you trying to tell me that anarchists cannot - or simply won't - do the same?

What is "the same"?

[–] therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It must be windy that high up in your soapbox.

Standing on a soapbox is still much better than having your head in the clouds.

I don’t mean to tell you, but the world order completely changed after WW1 and WW2

Sooo... these collapses you speak of - I'm assuming absolutely none of them resulted in the liberal socio-economic being any less resilient and dominant than it actually is today?

Last time I checked it certainly hadn't.

I'm not sure what point you are even trying to make by defining these crises as "collapses."

because people are too propagandized to perform said radical change

So the propagandised working class is to blame for the left's abysmal failures, eh?

Okay... let's assume that is the case - just for the moment. The first question that comes to my mind... how is the left's counter-propaganda theory and praxis coming along, then?

Over the last decade (or so) I've seen lots of (so-called) "debunking" media on libtube... oops, sorry, I meant to say breadtube - and even some of it here on lemmy - which, as any competent propagandist can tell you, is essentially useless for waging a war of narratives.

If I were to ask any (self-described) radical on lemmy to explain liberalism to me - which is where any competently thought out counter-propaganda narrative (ie, one that acknowledges the working-class' actual political experience) would start off from - using only one, succinct sentence... would any of them be able to manage that?

If the answer is "not many can do this extremely basic thing" then... you have a problem - it would be extremely premature to blame the working class' propagandisation for the left's failures if it were to turn out that the left is hopelessly incompetent at counter-propaganda.

And yes - before you ask - my background is in propaganda.

Lots of libertarian leftists (including, of course, anarchists) assure me that they do, in fact, listen to Bakunin's proverbial bootmaker... but I'm not seeing all that much of it.

Would you like to modify your statement, perhaps... and blame the left's failures on something else?

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago

Standing on a soapbox is still much better than having your head in the clouds.

If you think that's a good comeback, it's very very sad.

Sooo... these collapses you speak of - I'm assuming absolutely none of them resulted in the liberal socio-economic being any less resilient and dominant than it actually is today?

The system and the world order itself completely transformed. Its resilience is not what we're talking about.

I'm not sure what point you are even trying to make by defining these crises as "collapses."

That during these collapses is when radical leftists have more chance to push through the propaganda which is powerful while the system is stable?

So the propagandised working class is to blame for the left's abysmal failures, eh?

No? You should know better than to put words in people's mouths.

Okay... let's assume that is the case - just for the moment. The first question that comes to my mind... how is the left's counter-propaganda theory and praxis coming along, then?

As always, we're outnumbered and outgunned, but we do our best with the shit show we've inherited.

And yes - before you ask - my background is in propaganda.

I'd love to hear what tactics you actually suggest, because tearing things down in theory is easy, but I don't see you suggesting anything better.