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Comments like these make me think that if I were an American Jew I'd be donating to AIPAC. I'd want somewhere to escape to if antisemitism continues to to increase.
If it gets to a point where Jews are leaving your country to escape antisemitic violence, who's the monsters?
Israel isn't all Jews, and all Jews aren't Israeli.
Anti genocide and antisemitism are not the same thing, and it’s frankly antisemitic of you to imply that they are.
lol, every Jewish American I know hates AIPAC and is 100% against the occupation and genocide that is currently happening.
Nothing turns people against AIPAC more than facts about AIPAC and Israel.
I'm assuming your imaginary Jewish friends don't go to any of the synagogues that have been shot at by "anti-zionists".
You're grasping at straws here.
I think you’re the one that has been shooting synagogues, temples and churches because your mission is to get the people to kill each other.
LMAO, the people who leave are getting discounted houses/free land stolen from LIVING families who are now homeless. There are so many fucking reports, documentaries, and interviews about this, spanning back to the 19-fucking-70s. The Nakba is a real historically analyzed event. Fucking Helen Mirren has a quote about what she saw:
Who's the monster? Look in the mirror, "space cowboy". From a Canadian instance no less: you exist in a server on stolen treaty land, and you're support other's land getting stolen. What else is new.
This is interesting. She had other remarks about Israelis toward the end of her career as well. Less charitable ones
She had me in the first half, until the magical energy kicked in. Really illustrates how much you can overlook when you're quite sure you know who the good guys are. I bet the Nazi party also had its fair share of magical energy back in the day.
There were Jews living throughout the Middle East before 1948. Thriving Jewish communities in places like Cairo and Baghdad. Where did they go? Jews were forced out of their houses and had to move to Israel. But there were much more horrible things happening to Jews in the 1940s so most people don't think about it much. But maybe you pretend there was nothing bad at all happened to Jews in the 1940s, that kind of thinking seems to be getting commonplace nowadays.
There's no doubt terrible things have happened to Palestinians. But it's dishonest to be so selective about history. Especially when your goal is to dehumanize people.
But history is history. Today in 2026, 2/3 of racial attacks in my country are against Jews. We have synagogues being shot at coinciding with events in the Middle East. Sorry to pierce the safe little bubble you've built for yourself, but anti-zionism is the same as anti-semitism now. What else can we consider it to be? People attacking Canadian Jews because they're angry over things happening on the other side of the world. Anti-zionists don't distinguish between Israeli and Jew, so what are you doing be demanding some perverse form of political correctness in distinguishing between anto-zionist and antisemite?
You can get off the "Anti-zionist" ride at any time. There was never any goal to it anyway. Nothing that particular hate group is about benefits Palestinians anyway. Just promoting hate which can only get more people killed, and most of the people killed in the never ending conflict they want to go on forever are Palestinian.
Israeli Jews are mostly European and Americans, you can look up the census.
Israel was created as a way for Europe to not give the European Jewish people their land, wealth, language and influence back in Europe after CENTURIES of oppression. But yeah, it's the Muslim's fault. You don't even understand your own history at this point, you just want to hate Muslims, even when majority Catholic countries like Spain are calling out Israel.
LMAO rich coming from someone who is defending a country that was apparently promised to a group of people THREE THOUSAND YEARS AGO. Check your own hypocrisy.
Post stats. Back up your statement. If you're going to call the Jews in Israel refusing to serve under the IDF when they are attacking civilians in Gaza and Lebanon anti-semetic, back up your statement. If you're going to call the Jews around the world speaking up and saying that Israel should stop bombing children and civilians, back up your statement about them being anti-semites. If you're going to defend an environmentalist getting bombed in Lebanon because she didn't want to leave her conservation work, back up your statements about why she deserved to die.
And if you live in Canada, here's the police stats about hate crimes there. It's not 2/3's btw, because anti-Islam hatecrime is also up there in the numbers, and so is anti-Asian.
It's hilarious that you say I live in an anti-semetic bubble, when the evidence actually points to YOU living in one. I'm glad others also called you out on it.
Wow this is some serious islamaphobia here. Now let us watch as you try to cloak yourself in antisemitism while defending genocide. Such absolute bullshit.
So would you support the idea of ethno-states in general? Do you think being against ethno-states as a principle means one is against any given ethnicity that is attempting to found one? If you don't support ethnostates in general, what is the basis for granting exceptions such as to Israel? Having suffered a great injustice earlier in history? Couldn't, say, Ukrainians claim this because of the Holodomor? Would you find it ethical for them to, say, have separate rights for ethnic Ukrainians vs ethnic Hungarians, Russians, and others that are Ukrainian nationals?
I'm really asking here, because I just can't see how you can square this circle without just being plain arbitrary. You either are okay with the idea of ethnostates, or you aren't. And if you're in favor of them, you almost definitionally need to engage in either genocide (in the wider sense of any form of removal of a people) or apartheid (having separate classes based on ethnic lines). No? How else could you realize this without one of the two?
Not in general. When I was younger I didn't have a problem with there being a Jewish state, but I didn't think it was a necessity. I didn't think there would ever be large numbers of people becoming antisemitic. Sure there'd always be some white power losers, but not any significant movement based around antisemitism.
The antisemitism I've seen since October 7 has changed my mind. The attacks on synagogues, Jewish businesses, and harassment campaigns against Jews (there's even campaigns against holocaust museums) has convinced me that something akin to 1930s Germany can happen again. During that time Jews try to flee but no country would accept Jewish refugees.
It's a sad state the world is in today. Antisemitism is happening, we know it's connected to this "anti-zionist" movement, but people pretend it's not happening out of political expedience.
Leftists have always had a weakness towards anti-semitism (the old greedy capitalist Jew stereotype) as has the far right. In 1930s Germany the leftists and fascists joined together over their shared hatred of Jews. BTW, read about the night of the long knives if you want the biggest "leopards ate my face" moment in history, things didn't go well for the socialists once they were no longer useful to the fascists. Something to think about when you're rubbing shoulders with violent people that hate Jews.
History doesn't repeat itself but is sure does rhyme. We're in a dangerous time and we know antisemitism is a real force in radical politics on both the left and right, as much is you deny it because it's inconvenient to your narrative.
The need for a Jewish state is a indicator of a failure of humanity. It's sad that it has to be this way. Just as I wish that racism didn't exist at all, I wish there didn't need to be a Jewish state. But unfortunately racism does exist, and antisemitism is on the rise along with radical politics in which it is embedded. We've seen this story play out before.
I'll do what I can to make sure my country (Canada) will not repeat the mistakes it made in the past when asylum was not granted Jewish refugees from Germany. Recent statements by Mark Carney gives me some hope that at least Canada has learned from the past. But the constant attacks on synagogues in my country make me feel like the efforts by those that have read a history book may not be enough. So there needs to be a country of last resort for Jews.
This is not how I want the world to be, I'm just recognizing the reality of the world we're currently living in.
So you're saying the Jews need their own space as a matter of survival? I think the Germans had a word for that: lebensraum.
The reality of the situation is that zionists have spent the last four years systematically exterminating the population of Palestine through a combination of direct violence, terror, and apparently a coordinated effort to cause mass starvation.
In the last year, they've moved on to Lebanon and Syria.
Conflating Zionism and semitism won't make me think the atrocities being carried out right now are okay. I will remain an anti-zionist. You might convince me to become an anti-semite, though.
Edit: to clarify, this isnt a Jewish problem. The problem is being caused by the political entity we know as Israel, not the ethnic group we call Jews. Now both the political entity we call Israel, and actual anti-semites, have a vested interest in conflating the two.
The problem is you're only thinking about what's happening on the other side of the world. I'm thinking about what's happening where I live. You're ignoring what is happening to Jewish people because you don't want to upset your allies in your movement.
You're not the first person to look the other way when antisemitism was happening. You're not the first person to be in a movement that will ostracize you if you show any empathy for Jews. You have to continuously go back to the well and talk about what's happening elsewhere in the world while Jews in your own country are victims of racist violence.
There are very strong parallels between your behavior and the behavior of groups in the past. You're in a hate group. You don't want to see yourself as a member of a hate group, so you won't look at the violence perpetrated against Jews that have never even been to Israel. You can't consider that this violence is being done by the members of the same group you're in.
It's the same with white supremacists you know. If exposed to something that is clearly hateful towards black people they will go back to the warm comfort of a stream of information showing black people committing crimes.
Did you do that after the Bondi massacre? After you catch a glimpse of a news article about synagogue being shot at? Just go back to a stream of data depicting Jews doing terrible things to cleanse the doubt from your mind so you can stay loyal to your hate group?
As I said, there is a clear distinction between the actions of Israel the political entity and Jews the ethnic group. I absolutely condemn the actions of Israel. Unfortunately, other people who I am not in a group with use this to justify violence against Jews.
Israel the political entity also encourages those violent actions against Jews, to create a rally around the flag effect.
As long as both right wing neo-nazis and right wing Israeli leadership continue to draw an equivalence between Israel the political entity and Jews the ethnic group, people will feel justified attacking Jews in the name of harming Israel.
Me? I don't attack Jews. But I am quite comfortable calling out Israel as a fascist state run by genocidal maniacs. If you can't make that distinction, then once again: I will not stop being anti-zionist.
This is the downside of mixing religion and politics. Want to prevent anti-Semitic attacks that claim to defend Palestine? Work to make it very fucking clear that Israel the political entity does not speak for Jews the ethnic group. Or accept that you might become collateral damage.
Edit: much like how I have accepted that me being an American citizen makes me a target for anti-trump foreign entities, regardless of my support for trump. And much like how I have accepted that my Russian heritage will likely mean I never visit Ukraine ever again, even though I think the Russian invasion was completely unjustified.
So I'd repeat my follow up question: aren't there quite a few peoples who could claim ongoing discrimination as a justification for founding an ethnostate? Should the Roma in Europe be given an ethnostate? Why do you only extend this to Israel? The Roma face far more open discrimination in Europe today, measurably. Should Europe hand them land that doesn't belong to Europe in India because that's their ancient ancestral homeland?
Heck, look at the anti-Islamic rhetoric and attacks that have happened post 9/11... doesn't this, using your reasoning, justify the existence of an Islamic State?
I don't think you can fight racism with more racism, and ethnostates by definition require some degree of racism. All you do is encourage more racism, and I think quite clearly this pans out as the rise in antisemitic views has directly coincided with the actions of Israel. Or you'll have to walk me through how they don't... if ethnicity is an institutional dividing line within a state, you necessarily have to engage in racism to uphold it.
(Also not sure what you're referencing in the Night of Long Knives... I really hope this isn't an oblique National Socialists are socialists reference, because that would be pretty ridiculous. Even the Strassers, while you can certainly argue had some socialist ideas informing them, were not really traditional socialists. National Socialism was a distinct movement from socialism, and the latter never really aligned themselves with fascists, they were actively bleeding fighting them).
Are you not aware there are a number of majority Muslim states in the world? There is only one majority Jewish state and you want it gone, while being suspiciously vague about how you want to accomplish that.
There's a good case to be made for the Roma to have a state, but their history is being nomadic (so where would that state be?) and there doesn't seem to be the will within the Roma people to form a state.
Since you're making silly comparisons with other ethnicities, do you think it's wrong for indigenous people to claim a cultural connection to the land? If it's wrong for Jews to feel a connection to the land of their ancestors then it must also be wrong for indigenous people to feel a similar connection to the land of their ancestors? for that matter, do you feel it's wrong for Palestinians to feel a connection to the land of their ancestors?
Personally I'm pragmatic. Everyone has to live somewhere and people have a right to live where they were born, otherwise you end up with stateless people who will inevitably be oppressed. Like the Roma. More than 80% of the Jews in Israel were born there, so they have the right to live there. I was born on land that was taken from other people in the past, but I have a right to live in my country, because where else would I live?
I hope that many countries would allow in Jewish if we see a repeat of the antisemitc hatred of the past. We are currently headed in that direction. But I do recognize that antisemitc movements in the past and in the present are international movements (oh the irony that the real global schemers are the antisemites). So there's no guarantee that there will be any country that will give safe harbour to Jews... except for one.
I bring up the Night of the Long Knives to remind you want happens to socialists that become adjacent to fascists. Y'all are so busy congratulating yourselves for seeing some problems with capitalism and discovering antisemitic conspiracy theories for the first time in your lives, you don't see the pattern you're following.
The best argument for a Jewish state is to just read what people post on this site.
I have not said Israel shouldn't exist. I've said it shouldn't be an ethnostate. That's all. While you're trying to tar anyone against the idea of an ethnostate as an antisemite, I might point out that the most vociferous advocates for ethnostates in America are white nationalists such as the KKK. So maybe we should keep this converation between you and I rather than slandering each other based on who is standing on our side, because you'll find you have your own pretty unsavory types standing with you. Including, ironically, ardent antisemites.
You can call yourself pragmatic, but supporting the genocide or apartheid of a people because the people doing the genociding were themselves once genocided seems pretty ideological rather than pragmatic. I don't think this puts you in a very good position to finger wag others for their views on racism, cowboy.
I think the lesson of the 20th century is very, very clearly that ethnostates only lead to genocide and war. They almost have to by definition... the story of the Balkans and central Africa for the past century has been one of attempting to establish borders based on race and then humanitarian disasters followed as people who didn't fit into those borders were either forcibly expelled or killed. This can't really be denied, can it? And aren't we seeing this exact thing play out in Israel?
Can you explain to me how it is possible to have an ethnostate without engaging in either genocide or apartheid? Because I can't see how that's possible.
I think we also need to acknowledge there's a pretty big difference in a people currently or within a few generations culturally connected to a land, and people who have been displaced for literal centuries. Do we give Britain back to the Gaelic peoples that were displaced by Saxons? They can both claim a cultural connection and have been present the entire time, as with Jews in the area around Israel. How far back do we go?
In any case, no, even in the case of indigenous peoples, I absolutely do not support ethnostates because of the above... they invariably and always lead to genocide and apartheid, which I feel should be avoided at all costs. Do you not?
You aren't wrong, but you aren't going to have a sane conversation about Israel on Lemmy.
I think I can talk the crazy out of them :P
Congratulations, you're the perfect kind of brainless sheep that Israel wants to justify their genocide.
You are precisely as bad by rallying for genocide against all Israeli citizens. Hypocrite much?
I don’t think that’s giving American Jews enough credit.
Israel as a bug-out plan for anyone with Jewish heritage is a distinctly Zionist idea, which is far more polarizing these days.
But even if some Jews may be given to such a demonstrably facile us-them disposition — i.e., security-at-all-costs with no sense of irony whatsoever — my impression is that many find it impossible to ignore the apparent gollum of this increasingly explicit mechanized hegemonic genocidal fascist apartheid state somehow laying claim to their worldwide identity.
If I were an American Jew, I would be asking myself “is this what being Jewish means to me?” And I suspect my answer would be outrage to the tune of “no, fuck Zionism” or “no, fuck Israel.” Either way it would consume me utterly.
In short, I just find it hard to believe the average Jew is especially ignorant, heartless, or selfish. That to me sounds like actual antisemitism.
ETA: I can’t speak for American Jews but most of the Jews I know are either older and just anti-bibi or younger and openly anti-Zionist. This is in New York for context.
The Jewish people live on stolen land. Remind me what happened on May 14, 1948. This isn't some ancient claim. It was a bait and switch by England. Benny is just getting old and deciding like all the old boomers that he's going to solidify some legacy and die off unaccountable.
Yeah, I live on stolen land too. You do too. Pretty much everyone does, there isn't any territory on Earth that hasn't changed hands to a different ethnic group at some point. And "England" did a lot of horrible things throughout the history books. The Ottomans took land from Palestinians and sold it to the Jews too, but for some reason you don't want to implicate them in anything... why is that?
I.e. bad things happened before so I should be allowed to rape people with dogs.
What a lovely person you are to be shilling for that monstrous modern Nazi state.
What are you even talking about?!
Unless you are donating obscene amounts, they don't give 2 shits about you or your backup plan.
i mean i get it. i'm disabled. i had three weeks from my diagnosis to my first real death threat. not my first death threat, the first one that was actionable. the first nonactionable threat only took a few days. i'd have immigrated, like, anywhere by now if there was anywhere that took disabled people. and i'm literally the best in the world at my instrument.
Can you tell us more?
just a little, i'm putting things together. forgive me for being purposefully vague. the last person to do what i do on my instrument, which i cannot yet own because it costs as much as a house in the statesian midwest, did what she did in 1979. almost no one knows her name because it's a very obscure musical instrument. you only know her name if you play the instrument. she has a technique named after her. i have a technique named after me. there are only two people with techniques named after them wrt this instrument. i got my technique named after me about ten, maybe fifteen years ago (covid fucked with my sense of time) when i was developing it with a guy named mark in utah. i wanted to call it the gimme, he named it after me and I didn't quite get what an honor that was. then i saw my photo on the professional musicians association website last month. from the last convention i attended two decades ago. it's blowing my mind. that's about it.