this post was submitted on 22 Apr 2026
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[–] sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip 11 points 22 hours ago (3 children)

Exactly.

HERE'S A THEOREM: IF IT'S PROVEN, IT'S TRUE EVERYWHERE, FOREVER

But at the same time, even if it's true everywhere forever, it might still not be provable, because Gödel.

[–] ytg@sopuli.xyz 2 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

even if it’s true everywhere forever, it might still not be provable, because Gödel.

No. Gödel's completeness theorem says that if something is true in every model of a (first-order) theory, it must be provable. Gödel's incompleteness theorem says that for every sufficiently powerful theory, there exists statements that are true sometimes, and these can't be provable.

The key word is "everywhere".

[–] yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Worse: If the chosen axioms are contradictory, then the theorem is effectively worthless.

And it is impossible to know whether axioms are consistent. You can only prove that they are not.

[–] ytg@sopuli.xyz 2 points 4 hours ago

You can go deeper. To prove anything, including the consistency or inconsistency of a theory, you need to work within a different system of axioms, and assume that it is consistent, etc.

[–] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (1 children)

But that's math. And its proof is math. And that proof is true everywhere forever.

I see philosophy as a place to make nonrigorous arguments. Eventually, other fields advance enough to do away with many philosophical arguments, like whether matter is infinitely divisible or whether the physical brain or some metaphysical spirit determines our actions.

Since this is a question that math hasn't advanced enough to answer, we can have a philosophical argument about whether other fields will eventually advance enough to get rid of all philosophical arguments.

[–] sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip 2 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

I see philosophy as a place to make nonrigorous arguments.

Wait do you think Bertrand Russell and Alan Turing and Kurt Gödel weren't making philosophical arguments?

[–] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

They are clearly mathematical. Starting with definitions and axioms and deriving results from there using mathematical statements.

[–] sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 hour ago

They are clearly mathematical.

Sure. But they're also philosophical. The categories aren't mutually exclusive. Basic set theory (which is both mathematics and philosophy).