jlou

joined 2 years ago
[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 months ago

Or we could abolish the employer-employee contract and mandate that all firms be worker coops, so that no one could appropriate the positive and negative fruits of other people's labor

@news

[–] [email protected] -2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The statement is only generates a contradiction if there is an omniscient being. If there are no omniscient beings, it is consistent.

The idea is that it is impossible for a being to both know and not know something. Knowable is not the same as known to a particular being

@atheistmemes

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

My personal view is the following

You're working class if

- you only own small minority percentage of voting shares of an employing corporation or non-voting preferred shares
- are an employee or you are individually or jointly self-employed as in a worker cooperative.

You're employing class if you hold large percentages of the voting shares in at least one company

There are two dual risk reduction strategies one of diversification and one of commitment

@neoliberal

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 months ago (8 children)

Article: https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/

Video: https://youtu.be/c2UCqzH5wAQ

Either one introduces the argument against capitalism based on the liberal principle of imputation.

Economic democracy, a market economy where worker coop is the only firm legal structure, maximizes liberty much better than capitalism

@canada

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago (12 children)

Capitalism is indefensible from a libertarian perspective. A central libertarian tenet is that legal and de facto responsibility should match. However, the capitalist employer-employee contract inherently involves a violation of this tenet. The employer gets 100% of the legal responsibility for the positive and negative results of the enterprise. Despite workers' joint de facto responsibility for using up inputs to produce outputs, workers as employees get 0%

@canada

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Owning voting shares at the company you work at is different from owning voting shares in other companies

@neoliberal

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

There is information in it. Namely, that it itself is false. It is fully grammatical. Similar sentence are obviously valid such as:

This sentence has five words.

That is a true valid grammatical sentence.

I didn't invent the paradox. Philosophers have been contemplating this paradox for a long time.

The problem it gestures at is very deep and similar paradoxes showed up in the foundations of mathematics in the 20th century. It can't be dismissed easily.

@general

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

The arguments for worker coops are based on liberal economics (https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/). To summarize, the workers are jointly de facto responsible for using up inputs to produce outputs, so by the norm that legal and de facto responsibility should match, they should be assigned the whole product of the firm. Anything else would be unjust.

Equal votes doesn't mean equal pay. Workers can divide the pie however they prefer. In existing worker coops, not everyone gets paid the same.

@economy

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Classical laborists and mutualists were anti-capitalists. Some of whom predated Marx.
As I said, a mutualist economy or economic democracy has never existed. The modern arguments for economic democracy were first published in a book released in the 1990s. However, we have plenty of examples of worker coops and employee-owned corporations working well under capitalism. An economic democracy or mutualism differs from capitalism in that all firms are mandated to be worker coops

@whitepeopletwitter

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (3 children)

I know what capitalism is. My analysis of capitalism comes from a mutualist perspective and is inspired by the classical laborists rather than Marx

@whitepeopletwitter

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (5 children)

There has never been a worker-cooperative-dominated market economy, but actually existing worker coops and employee-owned corporations don't seem to create billionaires, and have more equitable distribution of wages.

Why does mandating all firms to be worker coops not abolish capitalism in your view?

@whitepeopletwitter

 

Pro-market anti-capitalism

Many on the left conflate markets with capitalism and oppose both. This is a mistake. Markets freed from capitalism where every workers' inalienable right to worker democracy may be useful, and help avoid the calculation problem. That being said, I'm highly sympathetic to those that seek to explore what might be possible without markets as that area is under-explored. Ultimately, we should emphasize worker coops

Here is an non-nuanced meme

@politicalmemes

 

"Inalienable Rights: Part I The Basic Argument" - what Nozick and Rothbard got wrong

https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/

“An inalienable right is a right that may not be ceded or transferred away even with the consent of the holders of the right. Any contract to alienate such a right would be an inherently invalid contract, and, vice-versa, a right such that any contract to alienate it was inherently invalid would thus be an inalienable right.”

@libertarianism

 

A moral argument for why all firms should be employee-owned - "Inalienable Right: Part 1 The Basic Argument"

https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/

@general

 

On a fallacy in the Kaldor-Hicks efficiency-equity analysis

"This paper shows that implicit assumptions about the numeraire good in the Kaldor-Hicks efficiency-equity analysis involve a “same-yardstick” fallacy (a fallacy pointed out by Paul Samuelson in another context). These results have negative implications for cost-benefit analysis, the wealth-maximization (e.g., “Chicago”) approach to law and economics, and other parts of applied welfare economics"

https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Kaldor-Hicks-FallacyReprint.pdf

@neoliberal

 

"Inalienable Rights: Part I The Basic Argument" - the liberal theory that both Nozick and Rawls missed

https://www.ellerman.org/inalienable-rights-part-i-the-basic-argument/

"An inalienable right is a right that may not be ceded or transferred away even with the consent of the holders of the right. Any contract to alienate such a right would be an inherently invalid contract, and, vice-versa, a right such that any contract to alienate it was inherently invalid would thus be an inalienable right."

@neoliberal

 

Partial Common Ownership: A New Model for Ownership - A new alternative to capitalist private property

https://www.radicalxchange.org/media/blog/pco-a-new-model-of-ownership/

The main disagreement I have with the article is that voting rights over management of firms should lie exclusively with workers. Besides that, the alternative described should be interesting to anti-capitalists.

The revenue from partial common ownership could be allocated using non-market mechanisms in democratic communities

@leftism

 

Plural Money, Socially-Provided Goods, and the Principal-Agent Problem

https://www.radicalxchange.org/media/blog/plural-money-socially-provided-goods-and-the-principal-agent-problem/

Vouchers and local currencies to extend the marketplace with the logic of commitment as well as the logic of exit that markets are based on.

@neoliberal

 

The Problems with Money and Without Money, and Communal Currencies and Vouchers - "Plural Money, Socially-Provided Goods, and the Principal-Agent Problem"

https://www.radicalxchange.org/media/blog/plural-money-socially-provided-goods-and-the-principal-agent-problem/

@leftism

 

"The Two Institutional Logics: Exit-Oriented Versus Commitment-Oriented Institutional Designs" - The Duality Economics Misses

https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Two-Logics-Reprint.pdf

"Economics focuses almost exclusively on the logic of exit and questions of institutional design are seen through that lens." It misses out on the other half of the duality with the logic of commitment

@neoliberal

 
 

The case for employee-owned companies

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/column-the-case-for-employee-owned-companies

In the sidebar, it asks for recommendations such as reading lists. I propose that David Ellerman's work be included in the reading list. He makes a unique argument in favor of workplace democracy

@progressivepolitics

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