GrymEdm

Good. In the USA, slavery isn't ok for private citizens. Only prisons are allowed to engage in blatant actual slavery.

Most of Canada's oil is heavy oil that doesn't compete well with the lighter oil on international markets due to difficulty in transportation and refining. It is shipped to the US by train, and refined in the US which has costs associated with it. I couldn't find a source saying that Canada would be 20% better off shipping to our other export targets like the EU. I'm willing to be taught a lesson by such sources.

I'm guessing you're arguing that trade with the US makes drugs expensive. Canada protects drug prices as part of our single-payer system. We negotiate prices nationally and thus pay close to what other OECD nations pay. Re: patents - I could very well be missing something, but wouldn't such patents exist regardless of trade agreements? If we could buy generic analogs of patented drugs then surely we can regardless of patents. If we can't get generic analogs then how does cancelling trade agreements make patented drugs cheaper? If you are just saying that US big pharma sucks then I totally agree, but I don't see how ending our agreements fixes that.

Americanization of media and culture isn't just a Canadian problem that stems from our close relationship to the US. Things like radicalization and swings towards autocracy are happening in democracies (and other systems) all around the world regardless of level of direct US influence. I don't think it's fair at all to say that if we didn't associate with the US that our society would be free from US-style problems.

I can see that NAFTA has caused instances of ignoring environmental damage. I will say that as far as I can tell by looking it up, the Lone Pine Resources v. Canada case was decided against the corporation, in which case the destruction you mention was not allowed. "On November 21, 2022, the NAFTA tribunal found that revocation of mining rights around the St. Lawrence river did not amount to an expropriation, considering that Claimant retained other mining rights. Tribunal majority also dismisses MST claim." Unless I'm reading that wrong (definitely a possibility) in that case NAFTA officials actually stopped environmental damage. Plus let's face it, provinces like Alberta and Ontario do not need NAFTA pressure at all to make large-scale environmentally harmful choices. I'm not convinced Canada would have refused to exploit resources if free trade wasn't a thing.

As far as the relationship being shit, there's a lot of experts who say it's beneficial. If nothing else it has created TONS of jobs for Canadians and been a bedrock of our economy across many sectors.

I hear you. It's absolutely insane how fast the Republicans morphed into what I now know are called vatniks. Including, unbelievably, support for Putin. I think conditions are different in the USA (for instance a lot of traditional and online media being very critical of Trump's moves) than Russia, but it remains to be seen how all this plays out. I fear autocracy is on the rise in many countries and definitely in the US.

As far as morality go, the entire world has problems demanding ethical treatment for people far away. Products of all kinds are made in terrible conditions, and even I'm not innocent as I own things like mobile phones. I admittedly don't know a ton about ethical guards, but I do know that even in the EU you still have companies like Nestle doing business in spite of clear exploitation. I think that is very much a humanity problem as opposed to just a US problem, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't call it out in North America or that you're wrong.

I can definitely see what you're saying, and you seem to be hoping for the best and planning for the worst. Which is reasonable. I don't disagree with you but I'd add to the conversation:

• There is meaningful resistance even now, weeks into the Trump's idiocy. Just today in the headlines on Lemmy we have judges blocking his orders, 20 states suing him for overreach, and citizens protesting. I think this resistance is bound to increase (in terms of size and urgency) as people start to see their family suffering/dying because of things like the social security payment collapse some experts are predicting.
• American businesses are pushing back to get tariffs delayed or stopped completely and that pressure is only going to increase as economic consequences roll in. Trump can lie all he wants about how great things will be but big money isn't about to sit around while they become less big money.
• Regardless of whether they exist as the USA or something else, there's about 345 million people south of our border in the US. Many of whom are economically tied to us and us to them. I'm not sure it's realistic to aim for a zero relationship situation or even a minimal one. It's a huge market, intertwined with ours, very close to our population centres and we're going to fall into either a beneficial or hostile relationship with a nation 10x the size of ours. I think we need to strive hard at a good relationship while simultaneously demanding respect.

That the quote is from Kissinger is not my only criticism, just the one you have an answer for. So you'll try to steer the conversation to that with, again, zero response to the sovereignty or economic realities I've brought up. If you want to continue arguing then post substance, not one-line zingers from one of the most evil men of the last 100 years.

If you're relying on Henry Kissinger for advice I have no common ground to advance the conversation with. Also, that quote addresses none of the points I've made about either sovereignty or economics, and isn't the dunk you appear to think it is.

Edit: Just another thought that occurred to me while thinking about how that quote is wrong - it's not even going to be fatal to have been America's friend. Canada is going to survive Trump's aggression, and will also survive the US relationship regardless of how things play out. Moreover, for decades the US-Canada alliance built up both countries immensely. I support Canada building stronger ties to more countries than just the US, but at this point in history far more good has come out of being America's friend than harm has been done by Trump.

You are right that Trump/Musk are destroying America. You are wrong that they are unopposed because they certainly are in Canada, in many other parts of the world, and yes, inside the US. Re: the stakes - the USA is not taking over Canada, period. They are causing a lot of economic harm, but telling Americans they're trash people that need to fuck off en masse does absolutely nothing to repair that damage. No matter what Trump tries to tell you and everyone else, this trade war is not popular among almost anyone. So what we do is keep on telling Trump to go fuck himself along with all those people, just as our nation is doing now.

If Americans do disappear and stop having a relationship with Canada as you suggest a HUGE number of Canadians are going to suffer. The only way to prevent that is to fight back as much as necessary and then work to restore the engine that keeps all those Canadians and Americans afloat. Basically as Canadians we need to stay the course, punish the US for it's betrayal, strengthen ties elsewhere, but then also be open to reconciliation. Being toxic and vengeful is not going to help citizens of either country.

Nah, you're clearly not paying attention or wilfully ignoring whatever doesn't fit your position. It's not even all MAGA folks that want to break up our national relationship and basically no one outside MAGA wants to at all. Even staunch conservatives are calling this the dumbest trade war ever. I think there's a lot of indication that most American citizens and especially many businesses want cooperation with Canada.

I hope your claimed real-world efforts are more meaningful than what I'm seeing from you in this post, because blanket insults posted online do not count. I get that you're disgusted and angry, but you are not being constructive and there are better ways to tell people you are angry. If you are sick of being constructive and/or acknowledging the benefits of Canada-USA friendship I understand, but you should probably take a break from news/social media.

I am another Canadian btw.

As another Canadian: I hate the US government, oligarchs, the loss of separation between church and state, and fascists. The US government has had terrible and negligent policies for much longer than the last 2 months. It's just now there's not even attempts to mask it and not nearly enough official resistance to it. America is being gutted beyond recognition as the same entity it was. I can empathize with what is, frankly, a rant from in4apenny even as I downvoted their post.

However I have many American friends I do NOT hate, and who do not hate me or covet my country. I do NOT agree with the "fuck everyone, you're all a blight" position. I could write many arguments why, but the most important one is for many decades our countries have been stronger for being allies. If I want Canada to be the greatest nation it can be I have to recognize the contribution of a friendly USA that existed basically uninterrupted until two months ago. I 100% support the "elbows up, fight back hard" movement that is sweeping my nation, but with an eye for historical context of shared success. I hope for a return to that friendship when/if you folks manage to restore sanity. But that restoration is either going to be very messy or not happen at all, so we'll see if the elbows ever get to come down again.

As a Canadian: thank you Europe for standing strong with Canada against tyrants, whether they rule from the Kremlin or the White House. Together we will make it to the other side of this insanity. Slava Ukraini.

You didn't figure that out when "Haitians are eating pets" was a major campaign point even though everyone near the applicable town emphatically called bullshit? Or when Trump promised to deport between 11 and 21 million illegal immigrants streaming in from Latin America?