Ah yes. Classic "Everyone deserves a fair trial, until I think they've done a bad enough crime, in which case I'll activately cheer for that right being taken away".
Vigilante justice is NEVER acceptable. Until someone has been justly tried, and convicted they innocent in the eyes of the law. Period, and no exception.
You people cheering this on, and encouraging have on your hands the blood of every single innocent person who was ever killed or assaulted by a vigilante.
Again, you're completely free in your choice to use economy classe. Business class and upper class ticket prices are in the same price range today (adj. for inflation) as the tickets of old times flights.
You're literally complaining about an option, that is entirely optional, existing, and not being as good as the more expensive ones.
Women may not not be a mathematical minority, but they absolutely are a cultural/societal minoritiy.
Cultural minorities have nothing to do with the absolute number of members the group has, but how much political and social power and influence the group holds.
That's why black africans during apartheid Africa would still be considered minorities, even though they made up the mathematical majority of inhabitants.
No, the topic is the UK electric code not being safe.
You're literally arguing that merely BECUSE the code needs safety devices it is therefore unsafe, which is utter nonsense.
By this logic, a potato is the best in terms of electrical safety. That's of course tongue in cheek, but if we're reducing plug capabilities in the interest of calling them safe, USB-A 1.0 is the "safest" because it only outputs 5V at 3A.
I'm concerned that you thought that was legitimately some kind of good point you made there. The fact that we're talking about a household plug and socket is blindingly obvious from context.
SN441011 is the Swiss system that through its 2-, 3- and 5-pin design supports single- and three-phase for up to 11 kW in domestic applications.
I have literally never in my life thought for even a millisecond "hey wouldn't be useful if I could plug my regular appliances into a high power outlet too ?"
How many multiphase and high power outlets do you people have that needing to be forward compatible with regular single phase household plugs is relevant ?
There's like maybe 2 or 3 devices in a home that even need multiphase high power outlets, like ovens+ranges, electric driers or water heaters or EVSE. And none of those tend to move around much.
Also, again, as I literally stated in in comment of above, that is a matter of convenience , not safety, so it's an irrelevant point.
Putting the onus of electrical safety on the user for repairs with a screwdriver is, in my opinion, inherently unsafe, especially when there's no safe backup through a circuit breaker. Imagine an impatient user replaces a burnt fuse with a piece of aluminum foil.
What if someone does that to a car fuse ? What if someone does it one of those old circuit fuses that you still get in old buildings without breakers ?
Or imagine an impatient home owner duck tapes their breaker/GFCI to "ON" because they can't be arsed to find the fault that makes it trip every 20 seconds.
Idiots ignoring obvious safety instructions will make most ANY system unsafe. It's not like replaying a fuse is a hard or dangerous process. Most plugs allow you to just clip out the fuse holder with anything small and pointy, swap it with an equal, and then pop it back in. It's not like we're expecting people to do rocket surgery here.
And here we are again. For the billionth fucking time in a row:
THE CURRENT CAPACITY OF A CIRCUIT HAS ZERO, NADA, NULL INFLUENCE ON THAT CIRCUITS ELECTRIC SHOCK POTENTIAL OR SEVERERTY AND IS NOT RELEVANT WHATSOEVER FOR HUMAN SAFETY.
And device safety is MORE THAN adequately provided by fused plugs. You just irrationally hate the UK network for some fucking reason, and are yet completely incapable of providing even a singular valid argument as to it being less safe.
You can get pretty much all of things today. You just have to pay the same price you did back then, adjusted for inflation.
In the old days every single seat on airplane was basically business/first class. There was no such thing as economy.
Passengers wanted cheaper tickets, so the clas system was introduced to offer cheap economy seats, and now y'all complaining that the seats specifically invented to be as cheap as possible don't offer the same amenities as the expensive ones.
Unless they're mandated by code, I don't care. Basic safety being an optional add on by the manufacturer is bad.
Nothing in this thread is about fatphobia. Literally nothing.
It's simply about the fact that society can't bend around every body type in existence. And yes, that sucks unbelievably much for people who ARE untypical bodytypes, and yes it's enormously unfair but it's more or less the best for a shit situation.
It's unreasonable and impossible to expect everything in every circumstance, to be accommodating to every possible body type , at least not without having having a massive number of seats on every transport empty, because they're reserved for people of unusual bodytypes, who are rare and therefore rarely use them. That would make prices higher for everyone, it would require more planes and busses an trains to be built and moved to accomodate the much lower number of effectively usable seats, which will lead to even higher costs, the networks will grid lock under the increased traffic, and the environment will suffer from all the extra airplanes that are now transporting far fewer pax per flight than before.
240V @ 30A is the highest on the planet. You consistently ignored current rating, despite recognizing that without the special, overengineered fused plugs, appliances would be exposed to them. Your inclusion of this is dishonest.
So your argument is that if you remove a necessary safety features the system is suddenly less safe. Well fucking shocker. That's no different from me saying that if you used a ring breaker on a Japanese branch, it would be exposed to 30A and just as dangerous, and therefore concluding the Japanese system must be worse.
It's a stupid hypothetical that tells you nothing about either system.
Also, at the point where a device is drawing short circuit current, EITHER breaker will trip most instantly, and whether the threshold is 30 or 20, the device is a smoking pile of burnt plastic afterwards anyway.
And again, breakers aren't designed to protect devices, and devices aren't designed to withstand some kind of massive fault tolerance based on the circuit they're plugged into. No device on planet earth is designed with the concept of "it has to survive even when a 20A short circuit happens. And even if so, it would just be "short circuit" in general. Because as I've pointed out, a dead short will trip EVERY breaker, instantly,, period. As I've pointed out repeatedly, 7A rated power cords are completely legal to sell for use on 20A Japanese outlets.
But if I'm wrong feel free to correct me. But specifically. I want specific and concrete measures and steps that you aledge are taken specifically to guard devices based on the fusing of the circuit they are attached too.
The claim you're rebutting is not the claim that was made. The claim that was made was that each UK circuit has higher current than a comparable North American circuit. Which is true. A UK household circuit is at 30A, while Canadian/US/Mexican is at 15/20A. American and UK homes use roughly the same amount of total power, but the American home typically distributes that power with roughly 4 times as many, lower-current circuits.
Sure, the current on one ring is greater than that on one branch, that's is true, I'll concede that. I just consider it irrelevant. The total current coming in at the terminal connection though is half as much in the UK than the US. The US commonly has 100, 150 or 200Amp service panels.
The rest of the world safely uses unfused plugs.
No it doesn't. Because you're laboruimg under the delusion that breakers are designed to protect anything beyond the internal wiring of your walls. They don't give a shit about anything else. That is their singular and sole purpose. Look for example at America. America has UNFUSED multi cords rated for 7A. There's literally nothing stopping you in America from plugging a 7amp rated extension cord, into a 20A outlet, plugging in two space heater on max and a third one on low, and pull 18-19 amps through a cord rated for 7, and no fuse or breaker is going to stop you from doing that. So quite demonstratably, at minimum one part of the rest of the world very much does NOT safely use unfused plugs.
Every argument you make that requires fuses supports my contention. And no, it doesn't. Swapping one safety features (central breakers) for a second, objectively better feature (fused plugs) isn't invalidated by some ridiculous kindergarden bullshit of "oh but if you didn't have those fuses it would be bad"
The code HAS those fuses, and with those fuses it is safe. Safer than a central breaker system in fact. You can't just keep racking caveats changes and asterisks onto the UK electrical code and then laughing at how unsafe is. Every single arguement you make where you need to exclude/ignore safety features that the UK system has, is in fact an argument in favour of the system.
You're assuming the internal resistance of a wire of sufficient gauge. An undersized wire - such as a power cord intended to be used on a 16A EU appliance - may not be capable of drawing 30A, let alone 1000, without catching fire. It may only draw 28A while it is glowing red hot. That same unfused power cable is perfectly acceptable and perfectly safe on a 16A EU circuit, but is unsafe on a UK household circuit without that special UK plug.
A power cord intended for a 16A EU appliance would be illegal to sell in the UK without an 15A fuse in the plug. Problem solved.
Again, you can't argue the system is less safe when you keep needing to ignore safety devices to make that argument. I could just as well as say that without your indivisible branch breakers, the Japanese system is unsafe, and the UK manages to work perfectly safely without individual branch breakers. According to you, this is valid logic to demonstrate the Japanese system is worse than the UK system, and every time you mention branch circuits or branch breakers it just strengthens my point.
You're ignoring the original point and arguing something tangential and irrelevant. The rest of the world safely uses unfused plugs. Which means that their power cables are simpler in design and construction, but necessitates that their power cable must be able to survive the full rated household current. The UK does not use this "unfused plug" design philosophy. The reason they don't use it is because it would necessitate that their power cables be capable of surviving 30A faults, rather than the 16A in the EU.
The UK does not restrict their household supply circuits to 16A. They allow their household circuits to carry 30A. That standardization decision necessitates the fused plug that the rest of the world simply doesn't need
I can just as easily flip that argument, about the UK safely using ring circuits with plug fuses, whilst the rest of the world needs to use branch breakers to keep their branches limited in size.
You're literally just talking about the fact that the unique system in the UK requires unique safety features. That is itself value neutral, and adds nothing of relevance.
Not an accurate observation of my understanding at all, and not particularly relevant to the discussion. The topic of discussion is the relationship of plugs to household wiring.
Considering you were arguing that Japanese plugs need to handle LOWER current, when in reality it's the exact opposite, they have to handle HIGHER current, I'd say it's an accurate observation. The most common standardised all purpose plug in the UK is fused at, and rated for 13 Amps. Well below a 20Amp. Japanese circuit.
Conceded, with the caveat that the RCD/AFCI/GFCI device for the 20A circuit will be more sensitive and allow lower current to pass than the equivalent RCD/AFCI/GFCI device on the 100A circuit.
Your caveat is wrong. The baseline leakage current is affected predominantly by voltage and cable length. A 20 Amp circuit and a 100A circuit could both perfectly adequately and safely be protected by a 30mA RCD.
Conceded, and irrelevant to the issue at hand
Relevant to the issue at the time, which was you claiming the outcome of electric shock changes based purely on the amperage rating of the cable used.
I suspect that those cables actually do have a fuse in them, much like the fused plugs used on North American Christmas decorations.
So the entire core of your argument, other countries not needing fuses in cables/plugs has just gone poof then.
Yes, exactly. Which is why the unfused portions of that device have to be designed to handle at least 16A.
I'd like to a citation for the claim that appliances need to be withstand the Maximum current in a fault case. Also what "withstands" is even supposed to mean in this context.
But In my opinion, even if that's the case, that's a point in FAVOUR of UK plugs. You can receive literally the IDENTICAL level of safety by making the appliance 3A fault tolerant, and giving the plug a 3Amp fuse.
Isn't the ability to make every device individually fault taulerant so much better than needing make them all fault tolerant to the max current.
It's also far safer abroad, because you're literally taken the fuse in the device with you. According to you, what happens when a device designed for a 16 Amp EU socket is plugged via adapter into a 20A Japanese socket. Now suddenly it has inadequate fault protection. Do the same thing with a UK socket, and it maintains the exact same level of fault tolerance it's always had.
Agreed. I've repeatedly made that exact argument in support of my point.
So if you agree with all my points then what exactly is your issue with the UK ekectric code ?
It seems to me that your entire grape is based around the fact that the same safety features are achieved differently in the UK, and you never argue about those safety features being worse, you simply point out that they are necessary, and somehow that makes the system worse. Also, small current fuses are arguably safer than circuit breakers. You can't detect a defective breaker, until it fails to actuate at excess current. A defective fuse would just be broken, and not allow a circuit to form in the first place.
I did notably just say that the plug is the best in the world for electrical safety. I've made no claims of it's usefulness or convenience outside of that.
(( am also unaware of any country on the planet that uses the same plug/connector for general purpose household devices and 3 phase power. The number you provided, SN441011, also just leads to relatively generic household plug that doesn't seem fit suited for multi phase use either, so not sure what you're trying to say. I've also rarely seen places outside of industrial environments that have multiphase outlets, except in America, which has split phase power, and uses the voltage boost by going phase to phase instead of phase to ground. There'll you'll do often find 240V split phase outlets for high power appliances like shop heaters, electric clothes driers or EVSE, but those outlets also require unique receptacles and plugs))
E: I believe I misunderstood exactly what you meant. You're complaining that UK electric code has nonstandard for a high power plug+socket combination. For one, that though has nothing at all to do with this plug. A lack of standard for a completely different plug has nothing to do with the quality of the plug at hand.
Also, there actually IS a standard, that is specifically adopted for EVSE in the UK. You can have a dedicated 400V three phase 32A circuit installed in your garage, and terminate in a red IEC 60309.
It's not that the standard doesn't exist, it's just the UK has a very very heavy preference for simply hard wiring high power and multiphase appliances.
To say nothing of how comically giant every appliance plug needs to be, regardless of how low its wattage is?
It's a minor nuisance yeah sure, but it also has the nice advantage that there's no need to fully mould plastic around it. UK plugs are pretty much universally openable, meaning you can repair them yourself if a fuse dies, or one of the wires comes lose. It's also really easy, and literally all you need is a single screw driver, to swap a working plug over onto a cable who's plug has broken.
But even so, it's again not a safety issue so not exactly relevant to my poing.
So you're saying the victim of a crime should get to act as judge jury and executioner ?
Like I'm sorry you had to go through that, but how would you feel it your child was falsely accused of murder, and then revenge killed by a family member of a victim at trial.
There's a reason we don't allow vigilante justice.