Isn't this business as usual? The food and pharmaceutical industries do this all the time.
this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2026
209 points (97.3% liked)
science
28759 readers
337 users here now
A community to post scientific articles, news, and civil discussion.
dart board;; science bs
rule #1: be kind
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
This is some real shitty, blatant propaganda. The gas station kratom derivatives are some real shady shit a la the synthetic cannabinoids and 'spice' mixes that used to go around, and the 'bath salts' versions of research chemicals that were unreliable and untested. But the plant itself is virtually harmless compared to every other recreational substance. Especially alcohol. And these 'ties' that this researcher supposedly has to the American Kratom Association, a totally grassroots organization that is struggling to compete against professional lawmakers and lobbyists, is that they paid for his airfare and hotel rooms for certain speaking engagements. Fucking pharma reps are out here buying cars and watches and prostitutes for doctors, but he's not allowed to have his plane ride paid for? Get fucked. This is a totally bullshit article regardless how you personally feel about kratom.
Kratom is insidious as fuck. I know three people who have successfully used it to quit heroin, and an equal number of people (including myself) who ended up addicted to it for years. I have two friends who were using 15-20 grams daily before they quit. We're all fully off of it now with zero interest in picking it up again, but it's pretty awful shit.
Sounds likes it's a lot better than being hooked on heroin.
Sure. But it's a hell of a lot worse than not being addicted to anything, and most people who get hooked on it weren't trying to kick heroin, they just tried an herbal supplement from a gas station that they assumed is safe.
I read stories about people getting hooked on the stuff and I don’t entirely understand. I took 3-6 grams (3 g twice in a day) per day 3 or 4 days a week and never got hooked for months. Maybe the people who get hooked are using it for pain mgmt or the more opioid effects, but at stim doses it just felt nice, never jonesy. That said, got off due to not knowing the heavy metal concentrations and lack of regulation.
If youve never touched the stuff and arent on harder shit, just dont bother, not worth the FAFO.
For those 3 people that got off horsey that seems like it was a life changing substance for them though.
Like any addictive substance if you take it every day you're going to get physically and mentally addicted.
It's not sold, marketed, or regulated as an addictive substance though, which is a huge fucking problem and a big part of the issue.
They sell it in little bottles as an "herbal energy supplement" on gas station counters, right next to the 5 hour energy drink. Some companies basically market it as a health tonic.
I'm all for people doing what they want, but the industry intentionally makes that hard do so in an informed and responsible fashion.
You are right about this it should be labelled properly
You know those little bottles of drugs arent even the same from store to store, right?
Dozens, thousands of different people bulk buy that packaging and bottles from china, and put whatever the fuck they can get into them. Same bottle, same packaging, same name, 30 minutes down the road can have a completely different drug in it.
The random pills and potions at the gas station shouldn't exist - I don't think any reasonable person would disagree with that. They are categorically different in terms of risk. As such, the responsible vendors and quality products should be differentiated from the garbage out there.
The concern, as someone who is helped greatly by this product, is that any attempt to ban the dangerous products will end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater - as gov't is wont to do with such things.
Literally everything is addictive. Alcohol isn't sold as an addictive substance yet it gets a pass for some reason
Here's an uplifting video on kratom.
This is not about kratom. It's about a synthetic derivative. If people were writing about the harmful effects of JWH-018 or 'spice' and calling it 'marijuana' would that seem reasonable to you? Because that's whats happening here.
Kratom is revolting stuff.
Prescription painkillers are worse by several orders of magnitude. There's a reason why the DEA gave up on trying to ban kratom.
I've used it to lessen my use of Adderall for narcolepsy and it's been a lifesaver.
I mixed about 2 tsp into water in the afternoon when I'm dragging, rather than taking more prescription stimulant. I use it between 1-3 times a week for at least 5 years, with several month long breaks in this time.
I think the weird derivative chemicals from it are probably dangerous, but I personally haven't experienced any problems with routine kratom use. I only use the powdered plant form I order from a reputable source, not the gas station drinks with synthetic versions.
Similar story here - it undoubtedly has improved my quality of life. I too use it as a kind of "herbal adderall", and only use plain leaf powder from a trusted vendor with many years in the business who provides testing data and tests every single incoming batch for contaminants.
It has addictive qualities, sure, but the safety profile is similar to coffee or cannabis. The benefits, for me at least, far outweigh any risks, which are minimal to begin with.
Kratom’s way less dangerous than alcohol. Every year alcohol kills more people in the US then all of the illegal drugs combined.
If you’re gonna start Crusading against drugs, you better start with alcohol.
The United States outright banned alcohol by constitutional amendment in the early 20th century. How'd that turn out?
Exactly. The US government just banned 70h across the country and The people that own that industry already have a new chemical ready to distribute to the American people in its place. I forget what this new chemical is called, but it’s not an extract of the Kratom plant like 70H is.
And after that new chemical is banned, there will be another one after that. And Another one after that. Each one will be farther and farther away from nature. Things will just get more and more dangerous.
Edit: the new chemical is MGM-15
How is appealing for scientific transparency in research (i.e lack of disclosure of industry funding) turning into a crusade against drugs? This is the Science Community afterall. Not saying you're not wrong, but it's directionally a "whataboutism" instead of addressing the topic at hand.
And if you're going to get into whataboutism, there are and have been massive campaigns against alcohol usage, and I can think of at least a few incidents of scientists publishing without disclosure of industry funding. "1 glass of wine a day is great for your health!" kind of shenanigans.
Anyway, you're not wrong if your argument is that there are bigger fish to fry, but that doesn't really address OPs thread in the slightest. :)
Kratom is less dangerous because less people use it.
Bad reactions to Kratom are sometimes as high as 30% whereas alcohol is much lower unless you are Asian and alcohol intolerant.
I think both are generally safe if taken in moderation though.
I tried Kratom once. I spent the night in the hospital where I supposedly stopped breathing 3 times.
You didn't get Kratom then
Everyone I was with experienced normal effects, and the ER doctors said they believed it to be a negative reaction to kratom in the discharge paperwork.
Note: I do take prescription medication
You take pain medications? Taking kratom with that is like drinking with that. Respiratory depression.
I’ve taken it before as well. A few times, actually. Never did anything except make me nauseous. That’s why I took it a few times… kept increasing the dose. Got nothing.
My cousin barfed his brains out, though. That was at least fun to watch.
Not pain medication. Strattera and Lexapro.
Were you suffering from serotonin syndrome? That is a really dangerous thing, actually. My wife had it once and it wasn’t pretty. She got it from an SSRI and Ashwagandha.
https://hellopharmacist.com/drug-supplement-interactions/drug-herbal/kratom-with-escitalopram
Kratom has a Moderate interaction with Escitalopram. Theoretically, taking kratom in combination with serotonergic drugs may increase levels of serotonin, increasing the risk of serotonin syndrome.
https://hellopharmacist.com/drug-supplement-interactions/drug-herbal/kratom-with-atomoxetine
Kratom has a Moderate interaction with Atomoxetine. Theoretically, kratom might increase the levels and clinical effects of drugs metabolized by CYP2D6.
This kind of stuff becomes more interesting when you take in account that not everyone functions the same.
For me, it didn't really do much other than tingle my tongue. My buddies though it was amazing. But I also have a very high opioid tolerance; I would take 40-60 mg of oxy for physical therapy briefly, when it was supposed to be 5 mg every four hours, to get my leg back into working condition, the surgeon was surprised that I regained all of my function in a month. That's after having a bunch of screws and a metal rod jammed inside of my leg for context. They gave me tramadol as well, which I stopped taking after a few days because I heard screaming and yelling (auditory hallucinations) while on the toilet. Daily Ibuprofen use will make you bleed out your yass. Daily Tylenol use will make your liver die faster than drinking everyday. I'll be in chronic pain for the rest of my life, but hey I got to keep my leg, so I'll just have myself a beer.