Ask Lemmy

Something you don’t need to hide today may be something you need to hide tomorrow. And there’s no going back.

While targeted advertisements may be nice because it's only showing you things that they think that you'll want/need/like, the other side of surveillance based advertising is surveillance pricing.

Surveillance pricing analyzes massive troves of your personal information to predict the price you would be willing to pay for an item—and charge you accordingly. Retailers can charge a higher price when it thinks you can afford to spend more—on payday, for example. Or when you need something the most, such as in an emergency.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/08/fight-surveillance-pricing-we-need-privacy-first

Tell him that you've installed a keylogger on all of his devices and will be listening in on all of his phone calls and reading everything that he types into all of his devices going forward. See how he reacts.

It is sadly something that some people will never understand. You could question why he does the things he does (closing curtains, using envelopes for letters instead of just using a postcard, having a password at all), but that would likely just make him feel attacked.

I don't have anything to hide does not imply that anyone needs to know. Not you, not a neighbor, not the internet, and absolutely not the government.

I may be ill and want to keep it from my family and work for as long as possible in order to complete and prepare some things. Privacy should exist for all under this type of scenario but it should not overpower the publics right to know when the public is affected (example...possible pedophiles or sex ring at the top levels of government).

I posted the following somewhere else recently:

"nothing to hide"

Secrecy and privacy are two different things.

Secrecy is hiding something you don't want anyone to know because it's "Bad/illegal".

Privacy is acknowledging that it's none of ANYONE'S business where you put gas in your car, what route you drive home, what brand of underwear you buy, what kind of music you listen to, your eating habits, etc.....

The more you are ok with data being collected, the more data they will try to collect until finally your life isn't yours anymore.

You don't close the bathroom door because you're doing something illegal, you close the bathroom door because it's none of anyone's business and you aren't interested in being watched.

Our personal data is valuable and holds power over us. Unfortunately it's only been recent decades that this concept REALLY started to sink in and unfortunately big corporations figured it out a little quicker than we did

I'm reminded of a story I heard about a woman in South America (I don't remember the country.) Her best friend attended a protest one year. She makes a post on Facebook about supporting her best friend. A few years pass, and the government started becoming more and more authoritarian. Finally, she gets a visit from the police, asking about her ties to her best friend, and is threatened with arrest unless she can prove she's not tied to the protest as well.

I'm probably getting some details wrong, but it's a thought that stuck with me. She didn't have anything to hide at the time. But things change, and you can't always predict what you'll have wish you had kept private before.

In digital world, there's no backdoor that only the good guys can access. The possibility of a bad actor accessing the same data that a court order would provide always exists. The true way of being safe against bad actors is being privacy focused as much as possible.

only thing i can think of is ask them really personal questions and then ask if they have something to hide if they dont want to tell you. And then escalate to ask access to their stuff so you can check for yourself if they still dont get the point. And finally point out that companies dont have to even ask, they just get that information without telling you because you agreed to whatever terms they have presented to you.

"arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -Edward Snowden

Any data that anybody collects of you today, they will keep. You might not be doing anything illegal today, but you have no way of knowing what will be declared illegal tomorrow, or by the next government, or the one after that, or if those will honor the principle of not punishing you for past breaches of new laws retroactively.

People in 1930 Germany did not know it would soon be illegal to have a relationship with a jew, or to talk negatively about Hitler. People in the 2024 USA didn't think they would soon be in danger for filming ICE raids, or tracking their movements in chat groups.

Another argument is that your data that advertisers or the government collect doesn't necessarily stay with them. Car manufacturers were shown ( article in German ) to have location tracking data of their customers' vehicles on virtually unprotected servers facing the internet. Researchers were able to deduct from this data alone who worked for e.g. secret services, who likely cheated on their wife, where their kids went to school and so on. What do you think a malicious actor could do with information clearly showing at which times in a week your house is likely to be empty?

Information about you and your family and social contacts and chats can also be used to better scam you by impersonating somebody you know. "Hey dad, it's X, got a new number. Can you transfer me some money till next week maybe?" Many people fall for that.

There are also other ways in which data can be used against you without anything strictly illegal happening. Do you really want your car insurance to have data about your driving habits?

Do you want your health insurance to know how often you order pizza? Both might get the idea to increase your payments for that in the future.

Would you want possible future employers to know you have a chronic disease that might mean you'll call in sick more often than others?

Last but not least, have you never said or done anything really embarrassing that you'd just prefer nobody to know?

"Do you shit with the door open?"

"Why? Are you hiding something?"

"To make sure you're not hiding anything, I need you to shit with the door open from now on."

Eventually, they'll justify their need for privacy. When they do, agree with them.

I'm not worried about what I'm doing, I'm worried about the intentions of those looking

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

Cardinal Richelieu

A quick quip is: I dont suppose you own curtains? Humans have a harder time conceptually thinking of privacy like curtains.

First and foremost, I equate privacy with dignity and respect.

But now it's also a matter of self defense. A woman in Texas does not want to be caught looking up abortion clinics. An immigrant searching for legal council could find themselves visited by ICE. An idle comment that you are anti-fascist could end up labeling you as a domestic terrorist. A tasteless joke you posted as a teenager could cost you a job as an adult.

Fifteen years ago my mother was on Facebook and the algorithm figured out she had breast cancer. She was flooded with quack cures and ads for clinics in Mexico. She didn't fall for, but if she had, it could have killed her.

It isn't just about Amazon trying to sell you a toilet seat. The stakes are higher than that.

I call it the bathroom analogy. When you're dropping a deuce, you're not doing anything illegal or immoral, indeed you're not doing anything anyone else isn't also doing, but I'd wager you probably don't want people watching you do it.

Great, can you give me your phone and unlock it so I can scroll through it?

You have nothing to hide right? Also if you could keep the door to the bathroom open that'd be great!

Usually gets the point across very quickly

"I need privacy not because my actions are questionable, but because your judgement and intentions are."

If he’s old he’s not going to understand…plain and simple. My boomer mom is completely unable to grasp privacy no matter how I explain it to her.

The reason you want security is because of scams and viruses…generally not because the government is trying to bust you for something you’re hiding. 

Compare it to free speech. Saying you don't need privacy because you have nothing to hide is like saying you don't need free speech because you have nothing to say. Eventually, through no fault of your own, there will come a time when you have something worth saying or hiding, and you will regret having surrendered your right to do so.

Another way to put it is: I don't need privacy because my judgment and intentions are shady, but because the authorities' judgment and intentions are, or one day will be. Allowing the authorities to invade your privacy and suppress your speech diminishes your ability to hold them accountable.

I like to think I have nothing to hide but who decides what is worth hiding and what is not?

The real answer is that you may not be doing anything illegal TODAY, but with a government as capricious as MAGA, you might easily find yourself on the wrong side of the law tomorrow, for something that has always been perfectly legal in the past.

For instance, they just arrested two journalists for doing exactly what journalists do, and have done for 250 years, but suddenly, it's illegal. What did they do? One of the pieces of evidence against them is that they were "asking questions."

Asking questions is now illegal, especially for a journalist.

If they decide they want to get you, they will go through all your communications, and spin some perfectly innocent statement into something nefarious.

You can NEVER trust the government, that's why.

Privacy and security are two different things.

Who do you trust more, the neighbor who keeps his blinds closed, or the neighbor who goes around trying to look in everyone's windows? What do you they have to hide?

Everyone has something to hide and you do not even know how valuable your data is because criminals and malicious state actors like North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the US government, and others always will have the upper hand relative to private citizens.

If I was to answer that type of argument, I would consider those:

• why do you close the door of the bathroom when you use it?
• Can I watch you fuck?
• Show me your last income declaration
• Give me your credit card
• Why do you wear clothing?
• Why do you lock the door of the house?

but I tend to ignore people using the "I have nothing to hide" argument

Surprised I didn't see this quote yet:

“Ultimately, arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.” ― Edward Snowden

May I have a copy of your birth certificate, driver's license, SSN, along with credit card info, bank and trading accounts, and a video of you naked to post online in multiple public forums?

No? Guess you like privacy more than you thought...

People having varying levels of desired privacy. I don't like to give out things just because someone wants to know, and by law I should be protected so as not to be compelled to.

Privacy isn't about hiding things, it's about not giving them away because someone else wants them.

Hate to break it to you. Dad has abandoned (or never had) critical thinking capabilities.

There isn’t a reasonable argument you can make against his emotional judgements that will get through and change his beliefs.

You might be able to trojan horse some ideas into his head somehow, but taking the direct path of just giving accurate information will not work

Someone who says "I actually really like ads" is a broken person. No exceptions.

"it's not about hiding things, it's so people don't steal your identity and your money. You want anyone in the street to be able to access your bank account if you lose your phone?"

Its not that people have nothing to hide.

Its that they haven't become aware that there are people who will harm them if they get a hold of certain information.

The easiest example now would be Trump's fascist regime mass cracking down on dissidents and establishing a mass surveillance and blackmail system with Palantir.

But we don't even need to go that far. Ever buy anything online? Got any financial or tax info stored on any electronic device that connects to the internet? I doubt you'd want some random criminal to get a hold of that info.

Someone compromises your password. Now they can "find hub" to know exactly where you are. If they are a criminal, they can wait and strike when you're online data says you are vulnerable.

You lose your unencrypted device. Someone launches your browser and logs into your bank...

Advertising knows your financial situation and might, for example, present a higher price because it sees that you generally are willing to pay more.

It's not that you have something to hide sure to dubious behavior, it's that all these others will exploit that knowledge to commit crimes against you or have unfair advantages in their relationship with you.

You're not the one who gets to decide if you have nothing to hide.

Give me the man and I will give you the case against him is a saying that was popularized in the Soviet Union and in Poland in the period of the People's Republic of Poland, attributed to the Stalinist jurist Andrey Vyshinsky,[2][5]: 200 [6] or the Soviet secret police chief Lavrentiy Beria.[3][4] It refers to the miscarriage of justice in the form of the abuse of power by the jurists, who could find any defendant guilty of "something", if they so desired

You can find just about anyone guilty of something if you have access to everything they do/say

When mentioning lack of privacy with targeted advertisements, he said that he actually really likes them, because he bought a couple of things he wanted for years.

"It's ok that we're being spied, it lets people better take my money on stuff I wanted anyway"

If they have access to your phone and/or email, they will have access to your bank. There won't even be much friction because the things your bank uses to trust that its you, are your phone and email.

The privacy aspect is also important, but secondary to that, and more of a drawn out discussion.

it's the same as not caring about free speech because you have nothing to say

"Can I look at your browser history and show it to your mom?"

Agreed, so when are we getting clear glass doors, and can we take all these curtains down?