I don't see the problem. What's the problem here? How is this bleak, except for the linegoup?
More babies is just more people later. I don't know that we need fewer, but we certainly don't need more.
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I don't see the problem. What's the problem here? How is this bleak, except for the linegoup?
More babies is just more people later. I don't know that we need fewer, but we certainly don't need more.
Old people unable to find caregivers and dying alone, often many years younger than they would with basic care. In isolation, I do find countrywide systemic elder neglect to be a pretty big negative. I am old enough my future need for care is starting to feel pretty real, and I really appreciate having enough nieces and nephews to have decent odds of support.
In Japan's specific case, there are large numbers of people in nearby countries that would jump at the chance to immigrate and work in elder care, but most Japanese are so racist they would rather die alone and early. So, I guess leave them to it.
large numbers of people in nearby
Cool
would rather
Okay. So why is pressuring already overworked put upon young people to do even more even on the table when letting the racist shit sticks die in their own piss respects everyone's autonomy?
That's more of a structural issue though than a population issue.
Like, you can literally have millions of people in the country that are unemployed but still not have enough care workers because the government refuses to pay them and provide the necessary infrastructure. An incompetent government does far more harm to elderly care than any population decline ever could do.
The "economy" can go fuck itself.
What matters is the resources available per person, and naturally you would expect that to go up when there's fewer children.
Japan before WWII
So:
→ lots of children
→ many young adults
→ few elderly
**Japan after WWII
**
→ baby boom
→ improved healthcare
→ Japan gives women more freedom to study and work. But… the system around family, work, and care barely changes.
Fertility collapses + a huge adult generation (from the baby boom) From the 1970s onward, the birth rate drops dramatically due to:
Lessons / Conclusion: Japan shows what happens when you don’t make structural changes for a long time. Too few workers + too many elderly = shortages of labor, money, and care.
Solutions
Countries like France and the Scandinavian nations do better:
Result: higher birth rates than Japan, Italy, Spain, and formerly Germany. If you want a “younger” society → invest structurally in good family life.
Without immigration → extreme population decline and extreme aging.
In Europe: immigration + integration makes aging far less severe.
Japan can insist “we don’t want immigration,” “we are homogeneous,” “we’ll manage through discipline,” but eventually this collides with simple math. If we want to preserve our way of life, we have to take demographic reality seriously, with better childcare, higher productivity, and controlled immigration.
I'd love to be told otherwise if this is untrue, but from what I understand the largest causes of birth rate decline in Japan are social, not economic, requirements. People want relationships, but they don't want the hassle of Japanese dating. For example, as I understand it, as a man asking a woman on a date in Japan would typically entail bringing both your friends and their friends out on the social outing and paying for everyone's meal. Because of this people don't want to date because it could mean having to pay for 4-8 people's meal.
Japan also has a lot of other cultural weird-isms like refusing to buy perfectly functional houses if they are more than 20-30 years old because their traditions expect houses to be torn down and rebuilt in that time frame.
Also I've heard that caring for the elderly is expected to be an all or nothing affair. You either bring your elders into your house and take care of them extensively or you do nothing.
Like I said, if someone has more information I'd love some insights, but the impressions I've gotten historically are that their problems are more than economic.
Another stupid article assuming that a population reduction is a bad thing.
No, no, of course, just keep increasing the human population until it crashes. Then it'll be an actual problem.
The numbers look bad because increasing population increases the GDP, and GDP has become the archetypal example of what happens when you turn a metric into a goal.
It's not just about GDP, if your retired population starts to outnumber your working population by a large amount, who will support all those old people? Nowadays children can't care for their parents because they have to go to their 9-5 every day, so we rely on other people to do that job for us, and if they disappear then what? The problem isn't the deflating population per se, it's the inverted demographic pyramid and our work culture
So the problem isn't "not enough babies" it's "not enough babies to keep both our xenophobia and our toxic work culture"?
Oh no. Whichever you choose, I'm sure the world will mourn the other with you.
The problem is made up. We're more productive than ever and should have plenty of leisure time and plenty of safety nets for old age....but that wealth has all been siphoned off by a very few. The solution to this is tax the wealthy.
"The problem that historians, economics, geographers and other researchers have studied for decades is made up. Trust me bro"
So, two easy solutions:
Immigrant labor
Cut the toxic work culture, go to a 20-30 hour work week, and give people time to take care of their parents.
Why can't they do that? Ask your economy priests why they can't do that. Get back to me.
Not all economists are capitalists or assholes. Many economists do propose such things. It's the government that doesn't implement them. Economists are real scientists, and shunning their work in such a blanket way is uncomfortably reminiscent of the kind of anti-science "I do my own research" thinking we see on the right. Economists disagree with each other on all sorts of things, because it's an evolving field, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be analogized to something like religion.
economists are real scientists
Absolutely, almost as much as L Ron hubbard was!
What makes someone a scientist to you? And why don't economists fit that? It's such an interesting take, especially since (given we're on Lemmy lol) I assume you're coming from either a communist or socialist standpoint, both of which are economic theories with many economists backing them. So it's not like all economists are playing on the team against you - although maybe you have a much more interesting take on all this than I'm imagining.
Turns our my definition if 'scientists' is pretty long and I'm lazy, but the short version is: person who tries to find the truth of material reality while mitigating/without bias as to final result of their inquiry
And I didn't say they weren't. Economists are almost as much scientists as L Ron Hubbard!
Well, I suppose if I take you literally then, sure. But of course your implication in that comparison is that economists are not a variety of scientist that should be listened to/taken seriously/respected etc. Especially since you used "priest" as an epithet, which would imply that you either think economics is pointless to think scientifically about, or that it is possible to think scientifically about economics but economists are doing it incorrectly, i.e in a priest-like way. Or some third thing I haven't considered. This is what I'm curious to hear more about your reasoning for. But I understand I'm just an internet stranger and it may be a lot to write out.
I said what I said, read it how you like.
Kurzgesagt had an nice video about this, it has a huge imact on culture too. With old people not able to transmit their knowledge and crafts.
You can't complain about a birthrate crisis when the world is full of immigrants and there is a domestic cost of living crisis unless you are a eugenicist on some level.
Throwing rocks from the glass house that is the US I know
Japan is super racist despite the polite facade. It also doesn’t help that they have a “work and drink yourself to death at the expense of having a life” culture.
America certainly does similar things, but we don’t bother polishing the turd with politeness.
So not having babies would be extra pressure to fix at least one of these things.
I don't see the problem.
It also doesn’t help that they have a “work and drink yourself to death at the expense of having a life” culture.
Americans, on average, work more hours per year than Japanese people (1765 vs 1691). Per capita alcohol consumption is also higher in the US than it is in Japan.
It was different in the 80s, but that's now it is now.
And that's bad. It's bad here. This culture should not reproduce and anyone who brings a child into this should be taken out back and shot.
I remember living it in Mexico like a free soul as a kid. We had poor people but I think I never really saw homeless people. Even the poorest person I knew had a little house where he lived with a few donkeys. We called him Toño La Muerte because his eyes were deep into his very thin looking skull eye sockets. He also lived right outside of the city pantheon. His little house burnt down once and besides the time my father died I can't remember having such a sinking feeling. Anyway his house was promptly rebuilt With community help. We didn't just let Toñito die out in despair having nothing. Anyway, now things are bleak for all kids out there. How can they ever dream of owning a place to live? And so if you can only focus on that problem, there's no room for the having kids problem. Its simple, you got no place to live so bring no kids until you do. Okay so let's say 50 year old men can finally afford a house so they start courting 20 year old women. That's a big gap. Maybe their sperm is not great. But then it also means that they are easily outcompeting young men for women who can have kids. Ofcourse for women this all means that they can't have a future of their own. They live so they can make bsbies with 50 year old men shooting blanks. Some of this might be true. My wife and I are similar age and married close to our 40's. We knew we had to make some babies asap or we would miss that chance. 5 years and you're done. Once women hit 40, its very hard to be pregnant. Having kids within 5 years is a lot of pressure.