this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2025
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Pragmatic Leftist Theory

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The neolibs are too far right. The tankies are doing whatever that is. Where's the space for the people who want fully-automated-luxury-gay-space-communism, but realize that it's gonna take a while and there are lots of steps between now and then? Here. This is that space.

Here, people should endeavor to discuss and devise practical, actionable leftist action. Vote lesser evil while you build grassroots coalitions. Unionize your workplace. Participate in SRAs. Build cohesion your local community. Educate the proletariat.

This is a place for practical people to develop practical plans to implement stable, incremental improvement.

If you're dead-set on drumming up all 18,453 True Leftists® into spontaneous Revolution, go somewhere else. The grown ups are talking.

Rules:

-1. Don't be a dick. Racism, sexism, other assorted bigotries, you know the drill. At least try to default to mutually respectful discussion. We're all on the same side here, unless you aren't, in which case kindly leave.

-2. Don't be a tankie. Yes I'm sure you have an extensive knowledge of century-old theory. There's been a century of history since then. Things didn't shake out as expected, maybe consider the possibility that a different angle of attack might be more effective in light of new data.

-3. Be practical. No one on the left benefits from counterproductive actions. This is a space informed by, not enslaved to, ideology. Promoting actions that are fundamentally untenable in the system in question, because they fulfill a sense of ideological purity, is a bad look. Don't do that.

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Government shut down and the divisions between workers (midwest.social)
submitted 1 week ago by Juice@midwest.social to c/PLT@sh.itjust.works
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I was invited here to participate in discussion. But when I visit, all I see is a bunch of anti-tankie posts from a prolific anti-tankie, an Atlantic smear article about DSA from months ago, and a few genuinely good discussions. Let's get those numbers up, and start drowning out the "based" memes.

As of today, the most divisive and urgent issue du jour, is about the government shutdown, and the legislative drama surrounding it. People are angry.

There are a lot of people directly affected by the shut down. I know someone who is basically working for free at her govt job because she's scared she will lose her job completely. A department of 20 workers, reduced to a staff of 4 temporary slaves. She doubts she will get back pay, but hopes she will. Many of her coworkers will not. My friend doesnt think about it like that, but that is def one major pain point in the middle class.

I'm willing to bet the dem house legislature is just gonna fold with no healthcare demand, which is a seriously pressing issue for workers who rely on ACA.

Back of the napkin, about 45% of ACA recipients are at or below the poverty line. ACA subsidies cut off below 65k indiv/130k fam.

That bracket would include many government workers, except govt workers receive healthcare. 65k is like barely middle class in the US, with housing costs, soaring energy bills, etc.,

Interesting and tragic how the shut down is just a way to divide the working class over material issues, especially the working poor vs the middle class.

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[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

all I see is a bunch of anti-tankie posts

To be fair, it is pragmatic to take into consideration the environment in which action takes place, and this platform does have a tankie problem. Memes are the modern language, and there are a lot of fence-sitting lurkers out there. Anti-tankie memes help to divert lurkers from the tankie pipeline (and help churn broader engagement, thus getting more users and more productive discussions).

Bear in mind I very particularly used the word "fledgling". We're in Field of Dreams territory here. I'm hoping with a couple more posters we can hit enough bases to "catch" and generate some productive content.

On topic, I can see both sides. Yeah, it was leverage, but on the other hand if the other side is deranged and won't cave no matter what, kicking the can gives Americans relief while keeping their attention for the following debate which would otherwise shrivel in the dark on C-SPAN.

It's possible that MAGA never caves, and just gets better at spinning it as Dems' fault. It's possible that anyone who hasn't gotten the message by now never will, and it's better to look like the beaten victim later. It's possible that this is actually a 6d master stroke. I dunno, I never finished Art of War. I'm not saying I believe it, but I can imagine that it's possible.

At the end of the day, I don't have much say over DNC leadership and strategy. This could be fuel to canvas for progressives in the next primary. Local is always cool. Volunteering at or donating to location charity is based. Running local is great, and how you get cred to move up.

[–] Juice@midwest.social 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I'll create a separate post about your "tankie problem" I think you're being sectarian in response to their sectarianism. Like you're trying real hard to appear serious but to me this pettiness and commitment to ideological puritanism appears weak. Like dont get me wrong I have been very frustrated in interactions with online MLs, but they aren't evil. Many are just immature in their views, and the black and white simplicity is appealing to people facing deeply contradictory conditions. But I'll try and table that piece.

I think the Republicans want the government shut down. I think they dont care if there is short term political fallout, they are betting they can use it to further pressure these government institutions further into disarray and dysfunction. They can blame everything on the democrats and win political points for their side, confusion in the middle, and wan proceduralism from their political opponents.

They're forcing a regressive "new deal". They aren't concerned with rational governance and economic viability, they're betting they can suppress dissent with police, gestapo forces (ice) and ai powered mass surveillance/domestic drone warfare.

I'm not usually too into legislative dilemmas, the two party system is a divisive trick that occupies the minds, hopes and actions of the worker classes. Republicans do evil, the Democratic party does lesser evil, and the big wheel keeps turning. But people are legit very angry and divided over this, and an objective analysis of those otg factors are imo very important, much more important than performative filibusters against an enemy that doesnt want to govern, but wants to deepen divisions and give more power to the billionaires.

I want just revolution, the dems want rational compromise, and the GOP wants slavery and social castes. The people want to be spared as individuals and can hardly even conceive of collective action. Its a dire situation that highlights a lot of the actual material conditions dividing workers, rather than the usual ho hum proceduralism and performative nonsense.

--

Been a long time since I read the Art of War, but when I did I read it alongside Machiavelli's The Prince. Always thought they complemented each other.

Since you brought it up, are you involved in local campaign work?

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I think you're being sectarian in response to their sectarianism.

I think what we have here is a Paradox of Tolerance type situation. It's only sectarianism against ideological sectarianism. I don't know what commitment to "ideological puritanism" you're referring to, that's exactly what we're against. When the loudest voices are blasting the feed with puritanism, loudly laughing at those voices helps prevent fence-sitters from concluding that the loud voices are correct. I don't think a they-go-low-we-go-high approach has ever actually worked with a general population. Pathos is a powerful rhetorical tool that the rational, theory-focused left tends to ignore, to our detriment.

I don't think tankies are evil, like you said I think they are immature and looking for the comfort of ideological puritanism. But we're not really calling them evil, we're calling them foolish and ignorant and counterproductive. We're laughing at them publicly so people see that they are laughable.

I don't think it should be the foundation of the community, but it's content. Content brings users, users drive engagement. Come for the anti-tankie memes, stay for the productive discussions.

I think the Republicans want the government shut down.

Almost certainly. That's why I can see a logic behind the Democrats caving. Democrats have very little material power here, the best they can really do is try to affect public opinion.

Since you brought it up, are you involved in local campaign work?

Unfortunately I only recently moved to my current town, after our most recent election, but I certainly will be in the next one. Currently I'm focused more on local charity and unionization efforts.

[–] Juice@midwest.social 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

As someone whose political tradition developed in opposition to Stalinist purges, who is an active organizer and leftist educator, I say we have to be careful how we resist political and social movements. A dialectical analysis, tempered with experience, taught me that opposition has its own logic that is independent of material conditions. Opposing sectarianism can make us more democratic, or it can make us more sectarian. The wrong kind of opposition leads to sectarianism.

I use the loaded word sectarian because I know its probably not how people here think of themselves, its not how MLs think of themselves either. The opposite of sectarianism isn't more sectarianism, its like a laser focus on human experience and direct experience with struggle. This is the difference between online MLs who preen and present "the right views™" and MLs who engage directly in the lives and struggles of workers.

I think we have to move people from that first sectarian category and into the second category which is genuinely about praxis.

As an anti-sectarian, I will call out what I see. All I care about is "reflection in action", praxis, as Friere describes it.

I'm glad to hear you are engaged in direct action. Maybe to lighten the oppositional character of online political discourse, we can talk more about the actual work, and analysis derived from, the time and energy we commit to making a more just and progressive society. Direct action is the real antidote to political immaturity, not memes. Those tankies idealism can't withstand lived experience. Unless they like gang up but this isn't HB, .ml

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Opposing sectarianism can make us more democratic, or it can make us more sectarian.

I can see why you say that, and I don't disagree, but I'll repeat my reference to the Paradox of Tolerance. The only leftists I want to purge are the ones who have no interest in productive conversation or compromise. The ones who only care about hammering their exact flavor of ideology, and calling any leftist who disagrees a shitlib. "Tankie" is a shorthand for those people. All others are more than welcome.

I think we have to move people from that first sectarian category and into the second category which is genuinely about praxis.

I totally agree. I think the memes are there to help weaken the attachment to the first category, and once they're less sure of the correctness of that ideology, discussions about direct action are what actually push them to the second. As the community evolves, I would prefer the focus shifts from what we need to stop doing, towards what we should be doing.

Maybe to lighten the oppositional character of online political discourse, we can talk more about the actual work, and analysis derived from, the time and energy we commit to making a more just and progressive society.

I totally agree. I already posted a link to Run For Something, I'd like to link more resources for direct action, and foster more discussions about engaging local communities and building mutual aid groups.

Those tankies idealism can't withstand lived experience. Unless they like gang up but this isn't HB, .ml

Which is the main reason I accept anti-tankie propaganda. They do gang up all across Lemmy and push their pro-tankie propaganda. Off Lemmy, absolutely direct action is most important. But on Lemmy, part of direct action is countering the waves of bullying and ideological noise.

[–] Juice@midwest.social 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I disagree with your assessment since I believe there are a significant number, probably a majority, of well meaning people who have adopted "tankie" affectations, and are encouraged by people they find to be kind and helpful, to view reality through a certain lens. I'm kind of between the two. I'm a Marxist, and a Leninist, and therefore share much of the same theoretical canon as many of these folks, as well as the frustration with certain idealistic bourgeois tendencies of classical liberalism.

On the other, I feel a great deal of affinity with progressive liberals who seem just as innocently wrong headed in roughly the same ratio as misguided MLs.

But I guess the division between your camps is just too concretized to be fixed by a few well meant, albeit spicy posts.

Just do me a favor and think about it. Anticommunism is always a gift to fascism. Where regular participants in this sub can't tell the difference between good commies and bad, and especially good MLs and bad, since we share a progressive movement I dont want to drive away people who could be strong allies.

Def think we have agreement on a lot, but this last piece with the based tankie memes gives me the ick

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I believe there are a significant number, probably a majority, of well meaning people who have adopted "tankie" affectations, and are encouraged by people they find to be kind and helpful, to view reality through a certain lens.

Those are precisely the people that content is meant to reach: well meaning people who have fallen into an enthusiastic, ideological pipeline that leaves no room for meaningful discussion or compromise. Memeing them out of a position they were memed into in the first place.

Anticommunism is always a gift to fascism.

There's nothing anticommunistic about it. I don't consider tankies to be communists, they're just authoritarians with a red paint job. I have no issues with communism, idealistically I'd consider myself an anarcho-communist (though practically, I think that's a multi-generational project which we can't reasonably reach without passing through a number of intermediate systems).

What I do have an issue with is the line-the-dissidents-against-the-wall, everyone-who-disagrees-with-me-is-a-shitlib mentality that dominates the tankie instances. The USSR never did anything wrong, China never did anything wrong, both are examples of communism, progressives are just as bad as fascists, either don't vote at all or vote for some fringe candidate polling at 0.001%, the proletariat need to be liberated by force against their consent for their own good. It's an ideology that decorates itself with leftist buzzwords, but it's the furthest thing from leftist praxis.

Anyone in that camp isn't going to be a strong ally, if anything they'll oppose pragmatic efforts toward progress because they aren't ideologically pure enough. I've spent a large portion of my life trying to educate people and help them to change their minds, and these people need to be shaken from their dogma before they can be allies.

The memes are deprogramming. The discussion is reprogramming. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the practical utility of the memes; I still think they form a valuable component of reeducation, and a way to drive engagement from the general feeds.

But I agree that they shouldn't be the focus. Ideally, most of the content should be resources and cooperative discussions. I'd much rather the community be 100% discussions and resources than 100% anti-tankie memes.

But this is still a small community. I only see about half a dozen users engaging with any regularity. The discussions I've started don't generate as much engagement as the memes. If people see a meme validating their frustrations from the oppressively present backwards "left", like it, view the community, and engage in discussion with others who are also frustrated by the oppressively present backwards "left", I'll consider that a win for now.

Hopefully, soon, the discussions and resources will dominate, and we can work towards meaningful progress together.

[–] Juice@midwest.social 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

What do you mean by pragmatic? You use the word a lot so you're like referring to some philosophy? Its very politicized in every context ive seen it so I wonder what you mean, concretely.

Also I'm not sure there is as much clarity around the commie/tankie distinction as you suppose. I had a convoy elsewhere here, the post with the Atlantic article, where someone was confused by what was meant by "the left of DSA," they said it would all be ML, and I had to correct them. A lot of new socialists don't realize that bring a Marxist- Leninist is distinct from being a Marxist and Leninist.

How do you thread that needle? Because the online tankies are distinct from the many many good ML educators and organizers. I don't agree with them on certain things, like rehabilitating Stalin, rejection of internationalism, and uncritical support of problematic socialist regimes. But I see people talking negatively about ML ideology, like about how they are infiltrators like some formless parasitic other. The memes don't educate, they aren't concrete, and I think they are troublesome for the left.

When I see people more concerned with mischaracterizing some other, rather than doing practical work (and this doesnt mean you pers, we've talked about your work a little) I get a little worried. Listen I'm not saying start deleting these memes but they are legit the only memes, well maybe one exception. There are other political memes that would be actually educating, not just attacking some group that doesnt even come here. When people start associating Marxism and communism with these "tankies" because they don't know all the history stuff but they can relate to being yelled at online for saying like, "isn't Cuba a dictatorship," then the tankie memes start to erode the basis for my work.

Because even if we don't like their immaturity, there is a lot of stuff I think they are closer to being right about than the average angry liberal. Or rather, the two sides sort of create each other, like I mentioned before, making eachnother more reactionary and provoked, deepening the worst behavior of both tendencies.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I'm not referencing any specific philosophy, I'm using the dictionary definition:

dealing with the problems that exist in a specific situation in a reasonable and logical way instead of depending on ideas and theories : practical as opposed to idealistic

It is a direct response to impotent idealism. Leftist conversations on Lemmy eventually trend towards purity test circle jerks instead of actionable solutions. I want actionable solutions, actual praxis.

When I see people more concerned with mischaracterizing some other, rather than doing practical work I get a little worried.

Which is precisely the behavior we're trying to counteract. The problematic instances are basically nothing but mischaracterizations of other leftists. It worries me that you're bending over backwards to give these people the benefit of the doubt, but you seem to have problems when we call out specific interactions we've had with them.

Their behavior is substantially more detrimental to your work than ours. They produce a constant stream of content that splinters the left, makes us look foolish, and presents leftist thought in a way that drives people away. If you haven't experienced that personally, that's nice for you, but it's a way bigger problem than you're making it out to be.

EDIT: I just looked at all the posts, and I'm not sure what you see as a "mischaracterization". Everything is either a screenshot of an actual conversation, or a commentary on an interaction I've either had personally, or is exactly identical to one I did. They're not flattering depictions, true, but they're not mischaracterizations. The real observed behavior they reference just isn't flattering.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Im not sure how prevalent it is but besides myself I have heard from others that block meme communities. For me this is communities that have meme or dank or such in the title or sidebar but also when I realize a community tends to just be posted memes. Take that as you will but I can say at least that I am out from communities where memes eclipse some vague feeling I have of it just being about memes. Not saying this community is that. As a matter of fact from the sidebar it seems like one I should subscribe to but I don't do that unless I get active enough in a community.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I don't want this to be a meme community. It largely is, because it's still small and memes are efficient low-effort means of communication, but I feel like that's how most communities start. I'm not against memes, but that isn't the primary goal.

You should participate. The more people sharing resources and starting discussions, the less it'll look like a meme community. I encourage anyone to start a discussion or share resources.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yeah I was mostly pointing out that memes work both ways as far as capturing or turning away people.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I consider it a filter. If you vibe, you'll stay. If not, we probably didn't want you anyway.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 1 points 1 week ago

yeah which I think is the healthy way to look at it. these are communities and really its pretty much the same as like clubs that meet in a library or whatnot. they are organic things and sorta will be what they will be.