this post was submitted on 09 Apr 2025

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356

We’ll get capitalism right, just give us 1 more spin of the roulette (lemmy.ml)

submitted 5 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 64 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Welfare capitalism was better than the other ones.

[+] [email protected] 14 points 5 days ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (2 children)

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (3 children)

Listen man I know I'm edging pretty close to "no true Scotsman," but hear me out... it's not that it wasn't "true socialism," but whether something is socialist economically isn't necessarily tied to authoritarianism. Like, fuck tankies, but also I do think that combining market economics and truly representative democracy with proportional representation and freedom of speech and association with socialist ownership structures (as in the abolition of corporate governance from any input from, frankly, absentee "owners") is the move. Socialism doesn't have to be authoritarian, nor does it have to be against market economics. Ya know?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I got a death threat from a tankie today because I suggested that Kamala would have not been as bad as the current administration.

That was fun, don't worry I was banned shortly thereafter from that community

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 days ago

Accelerationism is a hell of a drug. You would have thought they would learn something from Weimar Germany, but no.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 days ago

Was it that six-sided ursine one..?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago

yeah I keep hearing how we're a democracy but I've never felt it ever was. We have the technology to do a direct democracy but no one really wants to do it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I mean state capitalism is by definition not communism. This isn't a no true Scotsman they're just two different things.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Because it's half way to socialism?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It's the most left of the right-wing scope that is pro-capitalism, but doesn't address the underlying contradiction and will inevitably backslide to the right. It'll take longer, but will eventually side with fascism as capitalism historically does

[+] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (5 children)

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I'm referring more to as a Mode of Production, where the Socialist Mode is the democratic organization of the workers who together control all aspects of the business such as wages and investment. Richard Wolff explains it well. Socialism doesn't mean exclusively using central planning or centralization of power.

The contradictions I'm talking about are between the workers and the capitalist owners. That exists whether the capitalism is state or private, and whether the capitalism is laissez-faire or social democracy.

That contradiction will always lead to the capitalists accumulating wealth and using that wealth to improve the mechanisms of which they are able to accumulate wealth. High taxation, while an improvement over laissez-faire, does not change that reality. Wealth will still be accumulated by capitalists, who will then use that wealth to change the laws for their benefit. Democracy will backslide as corporate influence grows year over year. We see this backsliding all over Europe to various degrees, despite them having significantly more social safety nets than America. There is no type of capitalism that won't lead to Fascism.

China is a mix of capitalism and socialism. Richard Wolff also explains this well. It doesn't matter if they claim to be communist or not, or if they claim to be on that path or not, the current system is a mix

[+] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (6 children)

No, I'm talking about Modes of Production. I linked videos explaining it more in depth for a reason.

A workers cooperative is using a socialist mode of production to organize and run a private business.

You didn't provide what the contradictions of the socialist mode of production are. You gave critiques of planned economy and authoritarianism.

The contradiction of a capitalist mode of production is between the owner, who wants to maximize exploitation, and the workers, who want to minimize their exploitation. A socialist mode of production makes a democratic organization of all the workers replace that capitalist owner. The workers are in full control. There is no contradiction between the owner and workers because the workers are now also the owners.

I recommend reading the deluzian criticism of dialectics.

This is about philosophy, not a critique of marxian economics or dielectical materialism

If we can't agree on the definitions of Capitalism and Socialism, then we can't really have a conversation. I provided the videos by Richard Wolff so that the definitions being used are clear.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Social welfare capitalism is a good mix but over time the social aspect got burried

[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 days ago (5 children)

Social welfare capitalism is good in theory. But social welfare is in direct opposition to capitalism, and there is no way to actually contain the corrupting power of capitalism. The social aspect will always get buried.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 5 days ago

We're now trying pump and dump capitalism

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 days ago (7 children)

But 2 large economies tried to impliment communism... while engaged in a cold war against much more entrenched ideologies, while having corrupt leaders and they didn't do it well.

[+] [email protected] 13 points 5 days ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (10 children)

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago (5 children)

I swear people think it’s somehow an accident that Stalin and Mao were evil dictators and if only they weren’t we’d have true socialism.

I don't know about Mao, but while Stalin being an evil dictator wasn't an accident, Lenin being an evil dictator was. The Russian revolution wasn't just the Bolsheviks; there were many different groups of which the Bolsheviks simply happened to come out on top because of a ton of coincidences and bad decisions by everyone else.

And no other Marxist groups can get power enough to actually implement their ideas. QED socialism fails.

The Ukrainians did it until they were invaded by the Soviets, and Rojava's experiment seems to be mostly successful.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Socialism without an underlying set of morals beyond socialism is doomed to fail. It invites end-justifies-means to implement socialism, which taints it beyond repair.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago (2 children)

There's also been quite a few smaller socialist and anarchist societies that have existed under similar external influences. Almost like capitalism is tied up with ideological warmongering or something.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 days ago (9 children)

What’s that Churchill said about being the worst thing except for everything else that’s been tried?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago

Churchill said that about democracy, interesting you interchange the two.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago

Something that's incorrect

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago

Don't look at what came before mercantile capitalism.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Just look at life expectancies. Countries with social capitalism do the best and not by a little. By arguing everyone is the same, it's really supporting the worst.

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