this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2025
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collapse of the old society
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I think you're right, but I don't think OP would necessarily disagree (although I don't know them).
The point is, we don't really know where, or how many, tipping points there are. Every 0.1 degree warming is a higher chance of reaching them. And most climate models predict very different outcones for 2 degree vs 3 degree vs 4 degree warming.
So, there are a bunch of lags effects and tipping points, but we still don't have any information to suggest that every 0.1 degree avoided has huge value.
Many people have been manipulated into thinking of this whole problem as a "flow" or "rate" problem.
"If we could only slow down carbon..."
The thing is that what we have is a "sink" or "stock" problem where it's how much carbon is already in the system -- it's past actions that are already closed off to further change that are influencing things now
The rate of change in climate isn't from the rate of this year's contribution of 4ppm of CO2, it's from having 423ppm in the system all together forcing a very large shift in energy imbalance.
There is no solution space where slowing down the rate is meaningful. Going to zero or net negative for the ANNUAL rate next year is too small a lever against what work would need to happen to make a meaningful difference.
The TOTAL HISTORICAL carbon that is already there would have to be entirely removed and even that wouldn't put the system all the way back due to inertia and other nonlinearities.
What you're feeling today in the climate is actually geared to the emissions levels that were already achieved no more recently than 15 years ago in the past. What we do today will have effects that will only start in 15 years and take a long time to fully play out with effects still coming into play 100 years from today. This is a very very long lag time that confuses everything in terms of human feedbacks and human proof and human priorities.
A great number of people think we know what to do but we were too greedy and corrupt to do it.
I disagree. I think we have no idea what to even do. Humanity does not have the technology or capability to be sustainable. And so we think and talk about it wrongly because we do not want to accept that we are doomed.
We absolutely have the technology, it's just being blocked from being implemented on emergency timescales by soulless oil and gas corpo suits that have almost de-facto control of governments in most countries.
What's an example of the technology, and can you explain what scale it works at?
The tech is there. The only thing stopping us is a lack of political will due to capitalism resulting in oligarchs who have captured the political system, and a lack of public awareness of alternative ways of life due to poor education and propaganda.
A properly informed public that understands the extreme dangers of climate change, oligarchic capitalism, and the viability of changing things with collective power would allow us to use these existing technologies and prevent the devastation we're headed toward.
Those are all ways to reduce the flow of new carbon emissions, but they don't address the issue if the carbon that's already in the atmosphere, which is what they're talking about.
This would be things like more effective carbon capture technologies or sulfur dioxide injection. The point they're making is that just slowing down the rate that new carbon is added or even stopping new carbon from being added at all isn't sufficient to stop the runaway effects.
Never mind that the current regime in the US is on track to actually increase carbon emissions.
I'm aware, but I was addressing that one point at the end of their post about us not having sustainable technology, which I consider distinct from tech that sequesters existing emissions. As in, had we structured our societies with that other tech, it would've been fairly sustainable.
For sequestering carbon, I'd read a bit about growing mass amounts of some sort of seaweed or grass in shallow areas being somewhat promising, though ultimately I think we're locked in for some extreme change regardless. My recommendations of sustainable tech would only limit the ceiling we reach in the future.
So, there is a natural carbon cycle, natural nitrogen cycle etc.
On planet earth, the nitrogen cycle of the whole planet is only 50% of what humans need to eat every year. If you don't have artificial fertilizers, tractors, refrigerators etc etc, there is no way people can be fed even if they are everything that nature created.
We are locked into an artificial life support system. Our agriculture system creates more CO2 than all the cars being driven by a factor of 3.
We have no technology that is waiting to fix this. There is no "fix" where lots of people wouldn't die directly.
We DO NOT have sustainable technologies. For humans, we are committed to planetary overshoot if we stay alive, we have been in planetary overshoot for many generations already.
Your list of "solutions" are not real things that make significant change. Sorry. They slow down the worsening but they will not even extend civilization by one extra generation. You have been duped into thinking about this the wrong way.
Cities are giant factories that require the constant cycling of goods (food, water and other materials) using a transportation grid and they also require constant energy inputs to remove waste materials. Our ancestors didn't build cities to permanently live in until they had cheap surplus energy and a way to store it. I have something to warn you about...so your idea about edencity and public transportation is like you almost see how unsustainable cities are, and why.
The idea that wind and solar are infinitely scalable has actually been properly studied in the literature. For example, Mark Jacobson has a fully elucidated picture of what that would look like globally. If I remember correctly, he calls for every river on earth to be dammed for hydro, windmills covering every continent and around 200 solar panels for every living human AND major deductions in energy usage. This is a more highly industrialized future than any previous human project. He did not explore the material or energy costs of building this system. So for instance, on a planet where we cannot feed, build houses and build transport for everyone it's surprising if we can build them all windmills, batteries, wiring, solar panels and power dams. But...you know...we have to dream right? The main headline is that "the possibility is infinite". I actually don't believe that, it seems like all these large scale programs are already failing in many ways. Not that they aren't the best idea we have, they are just not working out.
By the way , we could also eat insects ground into a protein mush instead of actual vegetables.
David R. Montgomery puts forward some interesting evidence that the world could be fed without industrial farming, and there are promising new methods of creating artificial fertilizer using renewable energy instead of the fossil fuel using habor-bosch method.
Cities use far less energy and materials than less dense suburbs or rural living, which require moving materials and energy further than cities to dwellings that are far less energy efficient. I get the feeling you didn't actually look at the links I provided regarding how with the right planning, cities could be made self-sufficient and the most sustainable way of living, as you continue to suggest that they cannot be, even though the math in those videos indicate the opposite.
I never said cities as they exist today are desirable or sustainable, nor was that the inquiry you made to me. You asked what existing technologies we had to live sustainably. I think I made a solid case that we do have the existing ideas and technology to do so, but they are simply not implemented for reasons unrelated to their actual technical viability.
And this is a completely artificial social problem, not a technical one, which is what I've been mentioning in each response.
Capitalism is ultimately responsible for a tremendous amount of that artificial scarcity of food, housing, and transport, as profit incentives cause powerful corporations to suppress or eliminate solutions that would jeopardize that profit. Farmers during the depression destroyed food while the hungry watched to protect the market, affordable housing isn't created because it isn't as profitable as expensive housing, rent caps aren't implemented because real estate monopolies and landlords lobby politicians to ensure their profits continue to rise, public transport was gutted by monopolists in the oil, car, and tire industry for their continued profit.
As long as capitalism rules us, we will struggle to implement the tools that could save millions of people from dying, all for the benefit of a few psychopaths. I strongly believe we will continue on the path of destruction unless there is a nearly global rejection of capitalism as the main form of societal structure. I don't know for sure if we will eventually cast it off and survive, but I'm sure as hell going to try to slow down the amount of emissions we spew out in the hopes it gives us a sliver more time for that to potentially happen.
Whether or not you believe it's possible for humanity to actually do that depends entirely on how cynical your worldview is. In practical terms, a fully cynical view only guarantees a fail-state, which doesn't seem like a useful mindset to have. So I will continue to do as much as I am realistically able to help the possibility of resisting capitalism, as it's our only real way out, and I'll be happier with myself that I tried, even if we fail.