1500
To those in countries where democracy might last another election - harm reduction is not optional
(lemmy.world)
this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2025
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I just knew the comments were going to be us tearing each other apart.
I'm just thinking out loud here. What if Progressives that are registered as Democrats changed their registration to independent? Also, stop sending them your money. We could organize it to happen over one week. Then keep it that way for 30 days. See how much power we truly have. If we can show the Democratic party that they would never win another election without us, maybe they would be more likely to listen.
We have to be careful though, I know this President is running roughshod over the Constitution with the blessing of SCOTUS and Congress but they don't have enough votes or State legislatures to amend the Constitution. If they get that, then that truly is the end of this experiment.
Every single independent that I know guzzled down the Orange Kool-Aid.
That'd be point of re-re-re-rehashing this. Zohran Mamdani, using the big S word, recently won a primary. So now we all gotta go back and drag through this mud some more.
We just saw Progressives not voting for Harris, which lost her the election. The Democrats ignored that.
The good part is that the Democrats have no plan right now. So if anything Progressives should register to primary in better candidates. Also donations, but to individual candidates. This is why New York mattered so much. If Progressives can win, then it is a huge problem for the neoliberals.
Nope. That's not what happened in 2024. This is victim blaming. Progressives did not cause Harris to lose. Progressives refused to go full Orwell and pretend that Harris was the messiah. They had no problem speaking out about her failures and trying to get her to do better. But in the end, progressives still turned out to vote for her. Harris didn't even lose because people stayed home. If the voter turnout had been higher Trump would have done even better.
Biden won in 2020 because of two key reasons. First, he had covid helping him. Second, he adopted a lot of policies popular with the working class that would provide direct support to the embattled working and middle classes. Harris abandoned this path and only offered paltry heavily means-tested wonkish tax credits for a handful of people. She certainly wasn't running on something like Medicare for All.
Yes, progressives shat on Harris in a lot online discussions; she was a deeply flawed candidate. A lot of liberals took a more Orwellian bent, wanting to censor any and all criticism of her. They forget that responding to criticism is the fire that forges strong candidates. Instead they shielded her from criticism, and it just made her look weak.
Harris lost because her policies were so uninspiring that she couldn't appeal to enough low-engagement voters to get her over the top. The politically active people on the left who spend time talking politics on social media? Yeah, they held their nose and voted for Harris. Her status on Gaza cost her a lot of Muslim votes, but Muslims aren't hardly a reliably progressive voter base. If it weren't for the right's raging Islamophobia, most practicing Muslims would naturally be Republicans. It's only the right's historic Islamophobia that gives Democrats any chance with Muslim voters. Naturally, the religious conservatism of most Muslims should fit right in with Republican values. And predictably, as Harris chose to run a campaign leaning in to Islamophobia, Muslim voters found little reason to support her. Resisting Islamophobia is one of the few reasons most Muslims have to support Democrats. If Democrats aren't going to resist Islamophobia, then Muslims might as well support the party that aligns with more of their beliefs.
You can't play Mexican standoff because the Dems have an out: the center voter. If they left doesn't vote them in, the Dems will go to the center to find voters. And a center voter is worth double because it's a vote for you plus a vote taken away from the GOP.
The Harris campaign tried to appeal to the centrists, and look how that turned out.
She looked at Biden who did left things and what did that get him? Lose the house for years 3 and 4. And polls showed he was going to lose. Aka the left never showed up even after getting some left things.
Harris ran on women's rights, mf'ing democracy, and while she didn't say it it was clear there would be continuation of student debt relief, green energy, EVs, infrastructure, etc. But it didn't work because "it's the economy, stupid". The left couldn't even show up for their own human rights.
Biden did very, very few "left" things. His policies were center-right. (For example, when the railroad workers threatened the economy with a strike, the left-wing response would be to temporarily nationalize the rails; the right-wing response would be to protect the railroad companies and remove the workers' ability to strike.) Progressives showed up to vote for Harris, anyway, as the numbers show. The mythical "centrists" did not.
Biden: Green energy, EVs, drug price control, PACT act, Chips act, student debt relief, build back better, etc. Rail. That's just of the top of my head. But it's always n n n not enough for the left. He did left things but the left wasn't going to show up. Every. Single. Time.
All of those are center-right policies, tinkering with the mechanics of a fundamentally neo-liberal system, when that system is slowly crushing us (57% of Americans living hand-to-mouth). Imagine why voters aren't fired up to come out and support a boost to, say, semiconductor research spending to strengthen U.S. supply chain resilience.
Called it: n n n n n n n n not good enough.
Want more? They have to walk before they run. Right now y'all don't even want the walking, you'd rather protest no vote in Trump lol.
Or: Aka you'll never show up, so why would they cater to you? Why would they cater to the voter who will quite literally never show up.
*Ps I also like how you don't respond to the rail bit, your whole big argument.
In what world is green energy right (sorry, center right) wing. This is... insane is the best word I can find. Ciao.
He did some lefty things sure, but most of those were dramatically weaker than they could and should have been. He also spent the majority of his efforts on right-wing policies.
You can keep complaining that it's not enough for leftists, and you'd be right. Someone who half-asses a bunch of leftist policies, and hardcore pushes a bunch of right-wing policies is not going to be supported by leftists.
Are you serious? The question is how do you get more left things? The answer is to reward the left things that happen. ~~Tell~~ Show them that doing left things gets you voted in.
Right now they are punished for the left things they do. So what's the logical course of action? Drop them and move to the center. To find voters that actually show up.
Cmon. This is simple.
They are punished because they sprinkle a couple of left things into a mountain of right-wing policies, and keep telling us that we should be grateful. When actually try to push left-wing stuff, they get massive support from voters. When they continuously push right-wing bullshit, they lose support.
Look at Sander's/AOC's approval ratings. Look at the Fight the Oligarchs rallys. Look at the BLM movements. Look at the NYC election.
Then look at the votes for the increasingly right-wing presidential candidates. Look at the approval ratings for those candidates.
Notice a correlation? When they lean left, they get more support from voters. When they lean right, they get less support.
How has moving to the center been working out? If moving to the center has been helping them get more votes, why do they keep losing in what should be easily-winnable elections?
Polls (effectively what they are) are idealized. I remember one person before the election kept saying "polls show people don't want fracking Dems just need to be against fracking and it'll be a landslide." Yeah fucking right, right until the GOP starts shouting "it'll raise raise gas prices, they're going to raise gas prices. Prices prices prices, inflation inflation inflation". Trump won on the economy. When the rubber meets the road, in actual elections, on the national stage, the left policy gets punished and hilariously by the left.
Oh yeah more on polls. I already covered it: ~~Tell~~ Show them that doing left things gets you voted in. Polls is telling (kinda). Votes is showing. Showing is orders of magnitude more important.
They only win when they go to the center. Here's my copy paste because I have this conversation so much.
Ok let's go through this chronologically.
Bill Clinton: After successive Dem losses Bill figured out "it's the economy stupid", aka center policy, not leftist policy. Plus when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you generally run from the center. So that's what he did. And he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters! Aka: The left never shows up.
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on broad “hope” and “yes we can” and having energy, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
More on Obama: So he enacted the ACA. That's great, right? The thanks Obama got for that was to lose the House of Representatives for year 3 and 4. And lose the House of reps again for years 5 and 6. And then lose both the House of reps and the Senate for years 7 and 8. He enacted left policy and: The left never shows up.
Hillary Clinton: So what did Hillary learn from the last 6 years of Obama? She learned that the left never shows up. So she only stuck her head out with a big position to left on the map room to climate change. She basically declared war on climate change. You know that big existential issue that all the leftists care about, right? The big important issue that the left says they want so badly, right? And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters! Aka: The left never shows up.
Biden: Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don't stick your head out left on anything. Not one thing. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. And he won.
Biden in office: But he did left things anyway. He did green energy, EVs, drug price control, PACT act, Chips act, etc. And what were the results? Lost the House of Representatives for years 3 and 4. Polls showed him losing the election to Trump. He enacted left policy and: The left didn't show up for midterms, and was not going to show up for the next election.
Harris: Harris ran on abortion rights, democracy and it was apparent she'd continue green energy. She relied on the left to show up for their rights and for democracy. They couldn't even do that. Aka the left never shows up. (Btw Bill Clinton was right, it's the economy stupid. Trump won on the economy.)
And people are amazed that they don't run a big left platform? Every time they rely on the left they lose. Every Single Time. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win. Because the center voters actually show up.
With this history, you’d be an absolute fool to cater to and rely on the left. Because. They. Never. Show. Up.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories first. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Show them it’s safe to take policy chances. Because right now every time they run on left platforms or enact left policies, they lose.
Gore won the votes in election. The system wouldn't let him claim the win.
Yes, Obama gave a us the terrible ACA, which was drastically less than it should have been. He also abandoned most of his lefty campaign promses, and basically ran as a Republican, as he himself admitted. So yes, lefties didn't show up after that. Why would lefties be happy about a supposedly leftist candidate who self admittedly ran like a Republican?
Hillary lost because she is cartoonishly evil, and clearly campaigned on things that she had no intention of doing. She is practically the embodiment of the lying Corporate Democrats, so I don't see why you think she would get votes from the left.
Biden barely won when Trump was at his lowest. It took our lowest-approval rated president, at his worst time, for Biden to win. And once Biden got into office, he ran mostly to the right, with a few small leftist things sprinkled in. His approval kept declining as he continued to do right-wing things. Why you think a right-wing running president should expect to get votes from the left is beyond me.
Harris said she approved of, and would continue with Biden's mostly right-wing policies, all while chasing to the right after Trump.
You keep saying that leftists don't show up, but then point to mostly right-wing politicians, who run mostly right-wing campaigns and policies as your evidence. Meanwhile, actual leftists keep gaining popularity. We have plenty of evidence of voters showing up for the left, but we don't have evidence of politicians actually doing lefty things. It seems logical to me that when politicians pretend they are on the left, but end up moving to the right, that leftist-voters don't show up for them.
If left policy was this "if they just did it, it'd be a landslide" that the left keeps telling me, then gore would have been a landslide, right? Nope.
Obama. That's what I said, he ran center. and guess what happened???? HE WON. That was the whole point. The only times they win is when they go to the center. Thank you for admitting it. [Slow clap.]
But when in office he did left things like the ACA: N n n n n n n n n n (how many n's should I have?) not good enough! This is a perfect example of how nothing will be good enough. Want more? They have to walk before they run.
Hilary: "I'll do this". You: "LIAR". How do I even respond to this, you're just shutting out reality at this point. No conversation can be had, so this is my last message. Oh and it doesn't even matter because that's what she ran on and that left policy is what lost. That was the whole point.
Both Hilary and Obama you're doing mental gymnastics to avoid the point: center wins elections, left loses elections. That was the whole point.
Biden. That's how he won. That was the whole point. You're 3 for 3 on missing the point that center wins and left loses.
Green energy. you: "RIGHT WING NONSENSE". Student debt relief. You: "MORE RIGHT WING NONSENSE". Repeat ad nauseum.
I was wrong, it wasn't n n n not good enough. You're just doing mental gymnastics to avoid the point and then shutting out reality. Ciao.
You are correct. The ACA was not good enough. We could have healthcare for all, but instead we got giant handouts to Health Insurance companies. Once again, Obama himself said that he was basically an old-school Republican. It seems pretty logical to me that leftists don't want right wing politicians.
If being a leftist loses elections, how come the aforementioned politicans campaign on leftist policies, then abandon them? It seems like the entire point of their strategy is to appear leftist, then suddenly run to the right once they get elected. That strategy only works if leftists bring in the votes.
If you keep ignoring my points about how badly Trump had to be for Biden to win, then no, you won't ever really understand what I'm saying. But if you actually engage with what I said, that changes things.
Biden did half-ass green energy. I applaud him for that, while saying it was still nearly not good enough. Biden did less than the bare minimum that he campaigned on for debt relief. Yes, I don't think that is good enough.
A left candidate would not have done more drilling for oil than first term trump. A left candidate would have eliminated the student-debt system altogether. A candidate that leftists would vote for would not have deported massive amounts of people, while bailing out his rich friends, and bombing children.
Biden ran on a lot of those things, and as he abandoned them, his approval rating tanked. Weird, how that works.
You are correct, that your examples of right-wing politicians doing minorly leftist policy aren't good enough. I don't know why you think that is an argumentative win.
I haven't shut out anything. I keep bringing up points, and you keep saying "n n n not good enough", as though it's an actual argument.
*Rereading my prior comment, it was clear. You're either illiterate or trolling.
Says the person who doesn't address my points, and keeps saying the same thing despite multiple people giving examples of why they are incorrect.
I mean, honestly, if you manage to coordinate action on that scale, you're probably better off either attempting to take over the Dems or start a third party entirely.
Next election isn't for a year and a half, and there's no guarantee that it'll mean anything. If you want to try anything radical in electoral terms, now's definitely the time to do so. The chances of failure substantially changing our position is... low, unlike previously.