this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2025
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MeanwhileOnGrad
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has there been shareable rigorous proof that the units in Ukraine are not nazis? I know proving a negative (ie: none are) is impossible but there must be proof debunking stuff like “this patch is a nazi patch”?
—-
and before others ramp up the pitchforks because someone honestly wanted to share links here is my reply expounding my thoughts:
fi am saying i would love a list of links to share with the assholes that show them the prop they pushed was wrong.
why does that mean to you i “need hard proof” to believe something? i just want links. triggering yourself because someone asked for some info says a lot about how you may need to disconnect a hot minute.
my neighbors are refugees from ukraine. i adore them. i can’t just ask them “why do assholes in the US claim you are nazis?” they have lost it all already.
so … yeah. have you seen anything that is shareable with the russia agitprop assholes? not that they are convincible but yeah.. helps to share.
—- that the pitchforks keep coming and the ire about wanting links says a lot, folks. be rigorous.
The fuck... Ukraine was attacked...and you're suggesting that their needs to be hard proof that the entire country isn't Nazis? WTF
That and doesn't the burden of proof fall on those making the claim? What business is it of anyone's to prove Ukraine isn't Nazi. When no one had proven it is.
Precisely. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" and all that
the proof and its burden is not in question, the source of truth and its debunking is.
ie: share links debunking the claims. they must exist? turns out they do! someone else replied with what i was looking for. :)
To the people that accept russian propaganda, truth is irrelevant. If you waste time giving them proof of the basic truths the willfully reject. You have only wasted your own time and done exactly what they wanted. In this way they can keep thousands of foolish well-meaning people from simply dismissing their accusations as deserved.
i understand the sentiment. however personally I keep links to this stuff because it is important to me. thanks for your reply.
Feels a lot to me like "Well imagine if you were gay in Gaza". Whether or not there's a lot of shitty elements to their culture, imperialist aggression is evil and civilians don't deserve to be killed and have their homes and children stolen, and the side you support should be perfectly clear from that alone (I say all this knowing I'm probably more likely to be hate crimed for being gay in Ukraine than Gaza, because again, a country having a lot of nazis doesn't excuse invasion and ethnic cleaning)
and did you not comprehend the concept of proving a negative? i mentioned it in my reply even. sheesh. read my other reply too.
fuck no. i am saying i would love a list of links to share with the assholes that show them the prop they pushed was wrong.
why does that mean to you i “need hard proof” to believe something? i just want links. triggering yourself because someone asked for some info says a lot about how you may need to disconnect a hot minute.
my neighbors are refugees from ukraine. i adore them. i can’t just ask them “why do assholes in the US claim you are nazis?” they have lost it all already.
so … yeah. have you seen anything that is shareable with the russia agitprop assholes? not that they are convincible but yeah.. helps to share.
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/only-the-ruling-elite-in-ukraine-are-nazis-not-ordinary-ukrainians/
https://www.bbc.com/news/64718139
https://www.factcheck.org/2022/03/the-facts-on-de-nazifying-ukraine/
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/nato-nazis-satanists-putin-is-running-out-of-excuses-for-his-imperial-war/
FYI, posting these on .ml will likely lead to you being instance banned and then you'll be able to proudly display this achievement unlocked!
thanks for the links!!
Ah, well you're first comment did not communicate that well at all. You sounded like you wanted proof that Ukrainians weren't nazis. It read like some tankie ML shit.
the reply to me was, indeed, seemingly written in a triggered haste because at black and white glance it does indeed ask for links.
I am well aware that you're "just asking questions," ho ho, but this question actually does have a specific and interesting answer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)
The TL;DR is this: The closest thing Ukraine has to a neo-Nazi party, which is honestly pretty close to one, had some pretty strong legitimate support before the 2014 revolution. Basically, "anyone but Russia" was the thinking of a lot of people, and Svoboda showed a willingness to do things like get in fistfights with pro-Russian politicians which got them some credibility and support. Basically, the same type of faux-populist "back to greatness, we'll fight for you" appeal that Trump was able to ride in the US, and it did legitimately work. They got 10% of the vote in 2012, and they won majorities in some places.
In the aftermath of 2014, once there were populist candidates who were not eager Putin's-knob-slobberers available (and, also, when their Nazi tendencies were starting to become a lot more obvious), their support cratered like a poorly designed submersible. In the 2019 elections, they Voltroned up with all the other fascist parties, hoping to merge support and at least meet the 5% threshold to keep some kind of representation in government, the aggregated blob still just got 2%, surely only that high because it really wasn't that long ago when they were seen as a legitimate and helpful party.
TL;DRTL;DR: If Russian wanted to denazify Ukraine, they could have just done another Euromaidan, that was by far the most effective denazification event that has happened for decades in Ukraine.
Great summary. I enjoy the rebuttals that typically consist of grotesquely twisting Victoria Nuland’s words. There’s a link below of exactly that, even.
You can go there for a list of links to Western media that went on and on about the Nazis in Ukraine before the western initiated war against them. It's what changed my mind, because at the time, at least, those links were still very much live links.
This user is a long since tagged Tankie that just referred to .world/SJW as "The Nazi Instance" for calling attention to a clear misinfo "source" being put out as "news"
I can confirm, when I scrolled down a big red label with the word "Tankie" appeared next to his user name. That must mean something?
Where's the lie? Here's more for you:
Again, where's the lie, Mr "I can't self-validate and attention seek to make up for it?”
The lie would be anyone on here talking about brigading that post but you. I don’t even see it linked in this thread at all
Edit: thinking about this some more, your take is even more fuck-stupid considering OP is the main force behind the lemmy.ml boycott which encourages people not to participate on the instance whatsoever
well I have an acct there too. since I am, in all actuality, much a lefty. my initial reply was in good faith because I believe folks need to come with links not rhetoric, and now that I have them, (it was in another reply), I can take them back over the wall.
I’m a socialist. I largely stopped going there when they decided anything other than the prevailing view of the admins is racism. Can’t have a meaningful discussion there, wrongthink comments get nuked.
I suspect you’ll get plastered with some label and put in timeout if you attempt to pierce their bubble at all.
yeah. i reckon so. anarchist socialist here too.
Right on. It’s usually pretty telling when they’re asked about their thoughts on the Kronstadt Rebellion. Vanguard socialism is fucking bunk, imo
the original burden of truth rests with those making claims… there was never any evidence that ukraine had a nazi problem, so why should we or they have to prove a negative before the original claimants provide any evidence at all?
“just asking questions” isn’t “just” it’s also repeating an idea, which absolutely is helping that idea remain and spread… by “just asking questions” that have been asked for years and years and years with no evidence to support the questions, it becomes entirely propaganda
see also: the bullshit asymmetry principle
i wanted evidence the nazi prop was false. my original question had “that patch is nazi” as an idea to prove was false. sheesh. read the whole idea.
and my point was related to the bullshit principal- there MUST be a cohort of links debunking the claims.
okay and i want evidence that it’s true before spending time and energy debunking something that is just a wild claim presented without sources
the burden of proof is on the claim not the defendant
that’s absolutely not related to the bullshit asymmetry principal other than it being a prime example of it: it takes minimal effort to write a post asking for evidence - sincere or not, btw, there’s no way to know if you’re acting in good or bad faith - whilst it takes a lot of effort to do a web search by comparison, which you could also spend time and energy doing
if you provide evidence pointing to the fact that ukraine has nazis, then that does 2 things:
assuming you don’t believe the ukrainian govt has a nazi problem, this is also a core part of the scientific method: don’t try and prove what you believe; try and disprove it and if you can’t then what you believe is correct… dig up any real evidence for the claim, and if you can’t find real evidence then it’s nothing more than putin making a claim for unknown reasons when he clearly has an agenda
we know it’s not true. why are you so triggered i asked for shareable links that show examples of PATCHES and sigils being not nazi and other prop being false? I was given links and they were great!
Share the actual truths and that will outweigh the agitprop.
It's seriously insane how hard people are working to misinterpret you, there's no way people other than op are approaching this in good faith. You made it clear you're not a tankie, these people just can't stand the idea that their beliefs require proof or that there are people who aren't swayed by rhetoric alone (edit I def thought this was a tankie comment at first, that's how it sounded at first but you've made it abundantly clear that's not what it is)
"You're trying to prove a negative, they should just realize that" "they should just" is a pointless take to have on anything. people will never "just", they need convincing, and different people are convinced by different things. It's a tough subject to research, you've got one side claiming they're all nazis that deserve to be conquered and another that thinks they're all saints and can do no wrong, and I don't blame people at all for wanting evidence that the very real nazi groups in Ukraine aren't representative of everyone there, or even the whole military
thank you.
Thanks for confirming that you do indeed think of any instance not toeing the Triads preferred narratives as "Nazi Instances"
There’s absolutely Nazis serving in Ukraine, it’s just that the Azov leadership has been subsumed by the Ukrainian military rather than their former role as more of a militia. I haven’t seen any reports of Ukrainian leaders being Nazis.
I might add that there’s plenty of Nazis in Russia as well, and they serve in the Russian army too. Shit, Wagner was named after Hitler’s favorite composer and Perogi’s second in command had the damn SS thunder bolts tatted on his neck. He died with the chef though, thankfully.
shit there are TONS of nazis in the US military and police forces, too. that’s just standard. wanting links that debunk the claims that the gov is formally nazi was my goal. i miss apps like pocket for sharing links by category.
Because Western media just suddenly changed the narrative.
I have no idea if Wagner was a Nazi, but I do like Flight of the Valkeries. The fylflot was used by many people and still is, not as a symbol of hate, the runes are still in use as an alphabet and magical symbols by neopagan asatru...and that's not my point.
It’d be pretty weird for Wagner to be a Nazi considering he died in 1883…
The attitude is the attitude. What word would you suggest?
Wagner is only relevant insofar as Hitler was a fan, and then that his name was selected for the Russian PMC.
Normally I’d say that could just be a coincidence, but when one of the founding members also happens to have the SS bolts tatted on him, I think it’s safe to say they’re an organization comprised of fascists.
The fylfot is not the SS rune. If Ukraine is a Nazi State, it's a Nazi State invaded by another Nazi State.
Most of those 2014–2021 links are still live. Here are some.
where? ml?
Yes, sources like NYT, until they just .. didn't.
do you think archive would have it?